NPR

Ymx wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:17 am A bit reactionary really.

This RWC it could well be the 3N teams don’t make it to the semis.

But to put it in perspective

only one NH has ever one a World Cup.
England never made it out of group stage 2015
Ireland have never made it past the QFs
France have choked every single RWC

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:47 am In 2015 all the talk was of how far ahead you all were. These things are cyclical

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:46 am Saw this coming from long ago but this WC confirm this.

What will be the reason for this and what needs to be done to rectify it?

Guy Smiley wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:16 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:47 am In 2015 all the talk was of how far ahead you all were. These things are cyclical

Oom has been trolling for months now on the move to Europe by the SA Super teams and looking for any angle he can find to justify the crippling heartbreak he feels over what he and many other Saffas think was the rejection and expulsion of their teams by us Kiwis. In doing so, of course, he and his fellows conveniently forget that SA threatened to leave for years. Then, when Covid induced travel restrictions made holding the existing Super Rugby tournament practically impossible to hold NZ and Australia came up with a one off format holding a trans Tasman comp only.... and the manly man men children in the Republic snatched up their handbags and ran to Europe.

I feel for them, slightly. Having your private cross dressing habits and same sex preferences exposed like that publicly would have been a huge embarrassment, while discovering that throwing your hands up and shouting no no no didn't actually put people off the scent came as a huge shock.

Meanwhile, Australia have been on a downward spiral for some years and their current executive may have sparked the crisis need to finally turn that around, but it'll take years before they can return to any sort of familiar form. NZ have been corrosively coached under Foster and he has been part of the coaching line up with the ABs for 10 years... that'll end after the RWC and we should see some sort of revolutionary change and improvement under Razor. Argentina are disappointing... but there's a very promising competition growing in South America that is seeing the development of a professional league and improvement from the likes of Chile and Uruguay which will drag Argentina along and upwards with it... and Fiji are into the Finals for the first time. I'd say that rugby in the SH is actually shaping up quite well and Oom needs to learn to look past his own interests, get over his hurt feelings and actually grow a pair of balls before he gets too old to remember what to do with them.

SaintK wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:32 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:46 am Saw this coming from long ago but this WC confirm this.

What will be the reason for this and what needs to be done to rectify it?

Easy to rectify for SA. Select a fucking goalkicker!!!!
AB's will be fine once Foster has gone.
Aus were fools to get rid of Rennie and replace him with Jones. That's easily remedied. Though the senior ARU management board may have to go as well!

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:40 am

SaintK wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:32 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:46 am Saw this coming from long ago but this WC confirm this.

What will be the reason for this and what needs to be done to rectify it?

Easy to rectify for SA. Select a fucking goalkicker!!!!
AB's will be fine once Foster has gone.
Aus were fools to get rid of Rennie and replace him with Jones. That's easily remedied. Though the senior ARU management board may have to go as well!

Nope , it cut deeper that just that. When last did NZ u20s win the JWC?

Guy Smiley wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:16 am

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:47 am In 2015 all the talk was of how far ahead you all were. These things are cyclical

Oom has been trolling for months now on the move to Europe by the SA Super teams and looking for any angle he can find to justify the crippling heartbreak he feels over what he and many other Saffas think was the rejection and expulsion of their teams by us Kiwis. In doing so, of course, he and his fellows conveniently forget that SA threatened to leave for years. Then, when Covid induced travel restrictions made holding the existing Super Rugby tournament practically impossible to hold NZ and Australia came up with a one off format holding a trans Tasman comp only.... and the manly man men children in the Republic snatched up their handbags and ran to Europe.

I feel for them, slightly. Having your private cross dressing habits and same sex preferences exposed like that publicly would have been a huge embarrassment, while discovering that throwing your hands up and shouting no no no didn't actually put people off the scent came as a huge shock.

Meanwhile, Australia have been on a downward spiral for some years and their current executive may have sparked the crisis need to finally turn that around, but it'll take years before they can return to any sort of familiar form. NZ have been corrosively coached under Foster and he has been part of the coaching line up with the ABs for 10 years... that'll end after the RWC and we should see some sort of revolutionary change and improvement under Razor. Argentina are disappointing... but there's a very promising competition growing in South America that is seeing the development of a professional league and improvement from the likes of Chile and Uruguay which will drag Argentina along and upwards with it... and Fiji are into the Finals for the first time. I'd say that rugby in the SH is actually shaping up quite well and Oom needs to learn to look past his own interests, get over his hurt feelings and actually grow a pair of balls before he gets too old to remember what to do with them.

Ymx wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:17 am A bit reactionary really.

This RWC it could well be the 3N teams don’t make it to the semis.

But to put it in perspective

only one NH has ever one a World Cup.
England never made it out of group stage 2015
Ireland have never made it past the QFs
France have choked every single RWC

SaintK wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:54 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:40 am

SaintK wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:32 am
Easy to rectify for SA. Select a fucking goalkicker!!!!
AB's will be fine once Foster has gone.
Aus were fools to get rid of Rennie and replace him with Jones. That's easily remedied. Though the senior ARU management board may have to go as well!

Nope , it cut deeper that just that. When last did NZ u20s win the JWC?

That's bollocks
When did any one but France, SA and England win the U20 JWC in the last 10 years?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:53 am

Ymx wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:17 am A bit reactionary really.

This RWC it could well be the 3N teams don’t make it to the semis.

But to put it in perspective

only one NH has ever one a World Cup.
England never made it out of group stage 2015
Ireland have never made it past the QFs
France have choked every single RWC

Hardly. You are simply looking at it in a RWC context rather than the game as a whole and its long term future which is not limited to the SH.

I was going to start a separate thread on this to point out that rather than expanding the game globally, IRB/WR instead chose to run an old boys club to protect the interests of the greedy elite (and I count France in that) and, despite that, the game is on its knees. Ignoring the elephant in the room that is head injuries which could conceivably sink the game on its own, we have reached a position where
- Aus is on the verge of the lights going out. It's a minority sport there (behind sumoball, Aus rules and cricket....... and might even dip below football) already and so the catastrophic way they've structured the game since the advent of Soup might be the end of meaningful public interest. No public = no money. End of.
- Eng's woes are well documented. Whilst it being a toff's game in the country continues to limits its appeal, it still has enough toffs' coffers to defer a complete implosion. For now.
- Wal are in a position almost as bad economically as Aus (last night shows how f**ked Aus is) for very different reasons but the potential is the same: dwindling nos and no money.
- You read the NZ rugby board's review, right? The one that said the game was not fit for purpose and was unsustainable?
- Laurent and I were discussing Fra and participation nos do seem on the way down although the picture differs radically depending on region and ethnic demographic. An unlikely win of the RWC might alter that. Regardless, Fra is the most immune economically at present but is hardly in a picture of perfect health.
- SA. With all the changes in alignments (3N, URC and the relation with CC etc), I don't have a long term view. My gut feeling is player nos are high but crowd attendances are down and the tension between URC and CC might prove equally as problematic as that between Soup and CC.

The reality is that outside of Fra and Ire, watching numbers are down at all levels where it matters i.e. not intl level.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:53 am - SA. With all the changes in alignments (3N, URC and the relation with CC etc), I don't have a long term view. My gut feeling is player nos are high but crowd attendances are down and the tension between URC and CC might prove equally as problematic as that between Soup and CC.

Biffer wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:10 pm

SaintK wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:54 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:40 am
Nope , it cut deeper that just that. When last did NZ u20s win the JWC?

That's bollocks
When did any one but France, SA and England win the U20 JWC in the last 10 years?

New Zealand won it in 2015 and 2017. South Africa haven't won it since 2012.

Apart from that, flawless argument.

Biffer wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:11 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:53 am

Ymx wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:17 am A bit reactionary really.

This RWC it could well be the 3N teams don’t make it to the semis.

But to put it in perspective

only one NH has ever one a World Cup.
England never made it out of group stage 2015
Ireland have never made it past the QFs
France have choked every single RWC

Hardly. You are simply looking at it in a RWC context rather than the game as a whole and its long term future which is not limited to the SH.

I was going to start a separate thread on this to point out that rather than expanding the game globally, IRB/WR instead chose to run an old boys club to protect the interests of the greedy elite (and I count France in that) and, despite that, the game is on its knees. Ignoring the elephant in the room that is head injuries which could conceivably sink the game on its own, we have reached a position where
- Aus is on the verge of the lights going out. It's a minority sport there (behind sumoball, Aus rules and cricket....... and might even dip below football) already and so the catastrophic way they've structured the game since the advent of Soup might be the end of meaningful public interest. No public = no money. End of.
- Eng's woes are well documented. Whilst it being a toff's game in the country continues to limits its appeal, it still has enough toffs' coffers to defer a complete implosion. For now.
- Wal are in a position almost as bad economically as Aus (last night shows how f**ked Aus is) for very different reasons but the potential is the same: dwindling nos and no money.
- You read the NZ rugby board's review, right? The one that said the game was not fit for purpose and was unsustainable?
- Laurent and I were discussing Fra and participation nos do seem on the way down although the picture differs radically depending on region and ethnic demographic. An unlikely win of the RWC might alter that. Regardless, Fra is the most immune economically at present but is hardly in a picture of perfect health.
- SA. With all the changes in alignments (3N, URC and the relation with CC etc), I don't have a long term view. My gut feeling is player nos are high but crowd attendances are down and the tension between URC and CC might prove equally as problematic as that between Soup and CC.

The reality is that outside of Fra and Ire, watching numbers are down at all levels where it matters i.e. not intl level.

Scotland's crowds for Edinburgh and Glasgow are up over the last ten years.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:18 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:53 am - SA. With all the changes in alignments (3N, URC and the relation with CC etc), I don't have a long term view. My gut feeling is player nos are high but crowd attendances are down and the tension between URC and CC might prove equally as problematic as that between Soup and CC.

Thanks for a very good post.

Regarding SA

Our rugby base (bottom structure) is stronger then ever. For all the bad things about Corvid, it also bring some positives in broadcasting of schoolboy sport and rugby in particular. In the past only parents usually supported but now any supporter can watch and follow schoolboy rugby from friday to saturday and from u7D to the u18A first team. This is the heart of rugby culture in South Africa. I thought this is only available for the top rugby school, no vokken way, you can watch Swartland playing Hugenote Wellington on digi platforms. The big rugby schools still draw their crowds (highest in Paarl 30,000).

The rest of the structure is CC/URC/Springboks. The CC/URC is much better to what it use to be with soup. The URC franchises has gone through testing times but the best model is the one squad and coaching staff for both competitions. There are times when both teams (CC & URC/HC) play at the same time but I am sure they working on it.

Soup rugby and Covid killed the goose that lay the golden eggs regarding attendances. However South Africa attendances do compare well with our NH opponents. Cape Town will always draw the biggest crowds maybe even world wide.

So no, Soup killed our game, URC lifted it. Add that our players play for opponent teams even make it better for our test rugby.

Biffer wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:10 pm

SaintK wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:54 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:40 am
Nope , it cut deeper that just that. When last did NZ u20s win the JWC?

That's bollocks
When did any one but France, SA and England win the U20 JWC in the last 10 years?

New Zealand won it in 2015 and 2017. South Africa haven't won it since 2012.

Apart from that, flawless argument.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:34 pm

Biffer wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:11 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:53 am
Hardly. You are simply looking at it in a RWC context rather than the game as a whole and its long term future which is not limited to the SH.

I was going to start a separate thread on this to point out that rather than expanding the game globally, IRB/WR instead chose to run an old boys club to protect the interests of the greedy elite (and I count France in that) and, despite that, the game is on its knees. Ignoring the elephant in the room that is head injuries which could conceivably sink the game on its own, we have reached a position where
- Aus is on the verge of the lights going out. It's a minority sport there (behind sumoball, Aus rules and cricket....... and might even dip below football) already and so the catastrophic way they've structured the game since the advent of Soup might be the end of meaningful public interest. No public = no money. End of.
- Eng's woes are well documented. Whilst it being a toff's game in the country continues to limits its appeal, it still has enough toffs' coffers to defer a complete implosion. For now.
- Wal are in a position almost as bad economically as Aus (last night shows how f**ked Aus is) for very different reasons but the potential is the same: dwindling nos and no money.
- You read the NZ rugby board's review, right? The one that said the game was not fit for purpose and was unsustainable?
- Laurent and I were discussing Fra and participation nos do seem on the way down although the picture differs radically depending on region and ethnic demographic. An unlikely win of the RWC might alter that. Regardless, Fra is the most immune economically at present but is hardly in a picture of perfect health.
- SA. With all the changes in alignments (3N, URC and the relation with CC etc), I don't have a long term view. My gut feeling is player nos are high but crowd attendances are down and the tension between URC and CC might prove equally as problematic as that between Soup and CC.

The reality is that outside of Fra and Ire, watching numbers are down at all levels where it matters i.e. not intl level.

Scotland's crowds for Edinburgh and Glasgow are up over the last ten years.

I didn't specifically comment on that but surely that's a rob Peter to pay Paul scenario after the winding Reivers and Reds eventually into those 2 i.e. shoehorning 4 teams into 2 would increase the gates of the 2 but in toto, still represents a reduction from the numbers when there were 4? Anyway, it was all such a mess, I can't remember what happened: Borders resurrected and then culled again and then one private team and one run by the union?

Biffer wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:49 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:34 pm

Biffer wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:11 pm

Scotland's crowds for Edinburgh and Glasgow are up over the last ten years.

I didn't specifically comment on that but surely that's a rob Peter to pay Paul scenario after the winding Reivers and Reds eventually into those 2 i.e. shoehorning 4 teams into 2 would increase the gates of the 2 but in toto, still represents a reduction from the numbers when there were 4? Anyway, it was all such a mess, I can't remember what happened: Borders resurrected and then culled again and then one private team and one run by the union?

Nobody from the Borders is coming up to watch Edinburgh, and nobody from the North is going to watch Glasgow, believe me. In one case parochialism (people from Melrose wouldn't watch a Borders side if it played in Gala, so the idea of them coming to Edinburgh is heresy) and the other just distance. Borders and Caledonia ceased to exist more than 15 years ago, so improvement over the last ten is a realistic viewpoint.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:41 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:18 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:53 am - SA. With all the changes in alignments (3N, URC and the relation with CC etc), I don't have a long term view. My gut feeling is player nos are high but crowd attendances are down and the tension between URC and CC might prove equally as problematic as that between Soup and CC.

Thanks for a very good post.

Regarding SA

Our rugby base (bottom structure) is stronger then ever. For all the bad things about Corvid, it also bring some positives in broadcasting of schoolboy sport and rugby in particular. In the past only parents usually supported but now any supporter can watch and follow schoolboy rugby from friday to saturday and from u7D to the u18A first team. This is the heart of rugby culture in South Africa. I thought this is only available for the top rugby school, no vokken way, you can watch Swartland playing Hugenote Wellington on digi platforms. The big rugby schools still draw their crowds (highest in Paarl 30,000).

The rest of the structure is CC/URC/Springboks. The CC/URC is much better to what it use to be with soup. The URC franchises has gone through testing times but the best model is the one squad and coaching staff for both competitions. There are times when both teams (CC & URC/HC) play at the same time but I am sure they working on it.

Soup rugby and Covid killed the goose that lay the golden eggs regarding attendances. However South Africa attendances do compare well with our NH opponents. Cape Town will always draw the biggest crowds maybe even world wide.

So no, Soup killed our game, URC lifted it. Add that our players play for opponent teams even make it better for our test rugby.

No worries and thanks for the clarifications. Glad that the game is in good health where it matters most: grass roots. That's a lesson that too many other unions sitting in their ivory towers did not grasp or wilfully chose to ignore.

I also suspect you have another factor broadly in your advantage. The cost of living and hence players wages are much lower which means the game is more likely to be sustainable. The downside is the massed exodus you've seen of players (especially to France before the overseas limits came into force). SA rugby has done well to survive this. It has almost killed smaller nations like the PIs.

SaintK wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:45 pm

Biffer wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:10 pm

SaintK wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:54 am
That's bollocks
When did any one but France, SA and England win the U20 JWC in the last 10 years?

New Zealand won it in 2015 and 2017. South Africa haven't won it since 2012.

Apart from that, flawless argument.

I stand corrected

Dogbert wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:03 pm

Biffer wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:49 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:34 pm

I didn't specifically comment on that but surely that's a rob Peter to pay Paul scenario after the winding Reivers and Reds eventually into those 2 i.e. shoehorning 4 teams into 2 would increase the gates of the 2 but in toto, still represents a reduction from the numbers when there were 4? Anyway, it was all such a mess, I can't remember what happened: Borders resurrected and then culled again and then one private team and one run by the union?

Nobody from the Borders is coming up to watch Edinburgh, and nobody from the North is going to watch Glasgow, believe me. In one case parochialism (people from Melrose wouldn't watch a Borders side if it played in Gala, so the idea of them coming to Edinburgh is heresy) and the other just distance. Borders and Caledonia ceased to exist more than 15 years ago, so improvement over the last ten is a realistic viewpoint.

I'm a Glasgow season ticket holder living in Aberdeen , I think I've missed less than half a dozen home games in the last ten years

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:23 pm

Biffer wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:10 pm

SaintK wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:54 am
That's bollocks
When did any one but France, SA and England win the U20 JWC in the last 10 years?

New Zealand won it in 2015 and 2017. South Africa haven't won it since 2012.

Apart from that, flawless argument.

Thing is NZ use to dominate the JWC. SA hardly won it in the past.

The NH 6 Nation u20 tournament is great and probably the biggest developer of their player structures.

Simian wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:33 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:23 pm

Biffer wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:10 pm

New Zealand won it in 2015 and 2017. South Africa haven't won it since 2012.

Apart from that, flawless argument.

Thing is NZ use to dominate the JWC. SA hardly won it in the past.

The NH 6 Nation u20 tournament is great and probably the biggest developer of their player structures.

This is a weird take (to me anyhoo) for two reasons

NZ dominated (and really dominated) for the first few years only.

Do you really think the 6Ns U20s is driving (rather than reflecting) the development pathways? If the former, I think that’s a kinda crazy take

Niegs wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:50 pm And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:13 pm Take Scotland as an example. Where are their u20s?

Niegs wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:50 pm And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

Niegs wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:50 pm And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:14 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:13 pm Take Scotland as an example. Where are their u20s?

Joburg

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:19 pm

Niegs wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:50 pm And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

England seem to do pretty well at converting our U20s into Welsh and Scottish internationals...

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:33 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:19 pm

Niegs wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:50 pm And how many U20s actually kick on as first-choice pros (beyond the first few years when their clubs give them a shot for all that investment), let alone become senior internationals.

England seem to do pretty well at converting our U20s into Welsh and Scottish internationals...

It's not like we're losing Matfields and Conrad Smiths.

The ones we're losing detract from our pool of players almost good enough to be good at test rugby

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:09 pm

Simian wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:33 pm

OomStruisbaai wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:23 pm
Thing is NZ use to dominate the JWC. SA hardly won it in the past.

The NH 6 Nation u20 tournament is great and probably the biggest developer of their player structures.

This is a weird take (to me anyhoo) for two reasons

NZ dominated (and really dominated) for the first few years only.

Do you really think the 6Ns U20s is driving (rather than reflecting) the development pathways? If the former, I think that’s a kinda crazy take

NZ played in 7 out of 10 finals until France won it in 2018.

Thats quite dominating.