Another mass shooting in the US

[Rinkals]

That’d be interesting... would Texas oil be crucial to a new red state confederacy? Seems that many of them less well off than blue states as it is.

I fear that, should any such schism be enacted, it wouldn't be long before the Red States were waging war against the Blue States.

Trump has certainly presided over a weakening of the US that Putin and Kim wouldn't have expected even in their wildest dreams prior to his election as President.

So much for Making America Great Again.

This isn't all down to Trump. It's been a long time coming. Since Gringrich and his polarisation/poisoning of the politics at least.

Four-and-a-half years ago the notion that the US could be brought so quickly to the threshold of such a steep decline would have been unthinkable.

However divided American society may have been during the Obama years, Trump took a chainsaw to it during his tenure.

I honestly cannot see them recovering.

[notfatcat]

Anyone know if there's any correlation between gun murder rates, gun ownership numbers and stringency of gun laws across individual states? Is there evidence that this would likely increase gun deaths?

and as regards policies...

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-polic ... icies.html

Thanks. Some interesting stuff there. I found some more stuff from the lead researcher of the first one you posted - he's done some good stuff on policies.

[Slick]

And today’s mass killing, 230th of the year kids, comes from San Jose

[SaintK]

And today’s mass killing, 230th of the year kids, comes from San Jose

Might be a lot victims as they haven’t disclosed yet how many were injured or dead.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/san-jo ... index.html

I’m sure the NRA will be along to tell us why there should be no change to gun ownership laws

[Margin__Walker]

And today’s mass killing, 230th of the year kids, comes from San Jose

Might be a lot victims as they haven’t disclosed yet how many were injured or dead.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/san-jo ... index.html

I’m sure the NRA will be along to tell us why there should be no change to gun ownership laws

TBF, they will probably say that they should be relaxed in places like California (where the laws are a little stricter) to allow a good guy with a gun to stop an atrocity like this.

After the thoughts and prayers stuff is out of the way anyway.

[Slick]

Might be a lot victims as they haven’t disclosed yet how many were injured or dead.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/san-jo ... index.html

I’m sure the NRA will be along to tell us why there should be no change to gun ownership laws

TBF, they will probably say that they should be relaxed in places like California (where the laws are a little stricter) to allow a good guy with a gun to stop an atrocity like this.

After the thoughts and prayers stuff is out of the way anyway.

How many times has the good guy with the gun actually stopped these?

It’s a genuine question, I don’t know. Seems they either give themselves up, shoot themselves or get shot by the police. I can’t ever remember someone being stopped by a punter with a gun

[Enzedder]

There was one in a church in Texas or Oklahoma a couple of years back where a worshipper shot the shooter. Only one that I can recall though.

Edit - this one https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50942664

[fishfoodie]

I’m sure the NRA will be along to tell us why there should be no change to gun ownership laws

TBF, they will probably say that they should be relaxed in places like California (where the laws are a little stricter) to allow a good guy with a gun to stop an atrocity like this.

After the thoughts and prayers stuff is out of the way anyway.

How many times has the good guy with the gun actually stopped these?

It’s a genuine question, I don’t know. Seems they either give themselves up, shoot themselves or get shot by the police. I can’t ever remember someone being stopped by a punter with a gun

It does happen; but you're right; I'd say it's a tiny percentage of cases.

Oddly enough I remember one happening in Phoenix when I was living there. Two sets of gang bangers spotted each other driving around; & started taking shots at each other. Mom & Dad, with their kids inbetween them, get a little upset; & being wealthier & white, are better armed, & pull out their, better, guns and start engaging both sides.

End result is gang bangers end up in hospital/prison & the morgue; & the, "Good Guys with guns", get interviewed on the 5 O'Clock news.

[Slick]

There was one in a church in Texas or Oklahoma a couple of years back where a worshipper shot the shooter. Only one that I can recall though.

Edit - this one https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50942664

He was one of the parishioners assigned to the church’s security.

Church security. Totally normal

[Enzedder]

There was one in a church in Texas or Oklahoma a couple of years back where a worshipper shot the shooter. Only one that I can recall though.

Edit - this one https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50942664

He was one of the parishioners assigned to the church’s security.

Church security. Totally normal

So, the 'prayers' part of "thoughts and prayers" doesn't work then?

[tabascoboy]

He was one of the parishioners assigned to the church’s security.

Church security. Totally normal

So, the 'prayers' part of "thoughts and prayers" doesn't work then?

"Lord God, I pray for Your protection as I begin this day. You are my hiding place, and under Your wings I can always find refuge. Protect me from trouble wherever I go, and keep evil far from me. Coz if that don't work Imma gonna pop a cap in the fuckers' asses"

[Tichtheid]

The subject of religion and the Church in these conversations always reminds me of the John Coltrane tune Alabama, written in response to a far right bombing of a church in Birmingham Alabama, when they murdered four young children and injured a dozen or so more.

They are not Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Stre ... ch_bombing

[Openside]

There was one in a church in Texas or Oklahoma a couple of years back where a worshipper shot the shooter. Only one that I can recall though.

Edit - this one https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50942664

He was one of the parishioners assigned to the church’s security.

Church security. Totally normal

Quite - beggars belief.

[Hal Jordan]

Thing is as I posted a report a while ago a very significant number of gun deaths are from legally owned weapons, whether deliberate or accidental discharges. Not all of course by a long stretch but each and every death means one or more victims (quite probably innocent of any crime) and grieving families. I find it hard to understand where there is so much apparent unwillingness to even slightly reduce these mostly avoidable tragedies even if many, many more are as a result of illegal activity.

In 2018, accidental gun deaths accounted for 1% (458) of total gun-related deaths (39,740) in the United States.

Thus far in 2020, there have been unintentional shootings by over 220 children. This has resulted in 92 deaths and 135 injuries.

In the United States, over 4.6 million American children live in homes with at least 1 unloaded, unlocked gun, setting the scene for possible tragedy if firearms are not locked and stored properly.

The majority of people killed in firearm accidents are under age 24, and most of these young people are being shot by someone else, usually someone their own age. The shooter is typically a friend or family member, often an older brother. By contrast, older adults are at a far lower risk of accidental firearm death, and most often are shooting themselves.

As gun sales in the US spiked by 70% in March 2020 when compared to March 2019, accidental shooting deaths by minors spiked by 43%.

https://www.aftermath.com/content/accid ... tatistics/

And as for promoting gun ownership for self-defence reasons, it's well known there are parts of the UK where knife crime and stabbings are a serious problem. Is the answer then to allow anyone and everyone to carry a knife in public for self defence and deterrence?

The answer is obvious. Everyone allowed to carry a sword.

[laurent]

Thing is as I posted a report a while ago a very significant number of gun deaths are from legally owned weapons, whether deliberate or accidental discharges. Not all of course by a long stretch but each and every death means one or more victims (quite probably innocent of any crime) and grieving families. I find it hard to understand where there is so much apparent unwillingness to even slightly reduce these mostly avoidable tragedies even if many, many more are as a result of illegal activity.

In 2018, accidental gun deaths accounted for 1% (458) of total gun-related deaths (39,740) in the United States.

Thus far in 2020, there have been unintentional shootings by over 220 children. This has resulted in 92 deaths and 135 injuries.

In the United States, over 4.6 million American children live in homes with at least 1 unloaded, unlocked gun, setting the scene for possible tragedy if firearms are not locked and stored properly.

The majority of people killed in firearm accidents are under age 24, and most of these young people are being shot by someone else, usually someone their own age. The shooter is typically a friend or family member, often an older brother. By contrast, older adults are at a far lower risk of accidental firearm death, and most often are shooting themselves.

As gun sales in the US spiked by 70% in March 2020 when compared to March 2019, accidental shooting deaths by minors spiked by 43%.

https://www.aftermath.com/content/accid ... tatistics/

And as for promoting gun ownership for self-defence reasons, it's well known there are parts of the UK where knife crime and stabbings are a serious problem. Is the answer then to allow anyone and everyone to carry a knife in public for self defence and deterrence?

The answer is obvious. Everyone allowed to carry a sword.

Sounds like fun

[FalseBayFC]

I fear that, should any such schism be enacted, it wouldn't be long before the Red States were waging war against the Blue States.

Trump has certainly presided over a weakening of the US that Putin and Kim wouldn't have expected even in their wildest dreams prior to his election as President.

So much for Making America Great Again.

This isn't all down to Trump. It's been a long time coming. Since Gringrich and his polarisation/poisoning of the politics at least.

Four-and-a-half years ago the notion that the US could be brought so quickly to the threshold of such a steep decline would have been unthinkable.

However divided American society may have been during the Obama years, Trump took a chainsaw to it during his tenure.

I honestly cannot see them recovering.

No steep decline happening in the US. Creative tension yes. The gun and race issues are emotive drawcards for the media to captivate readers and watchers around the world.

For decline see Europe, moribund and facing a demographic timebomb. Only surviving due to its legacy relationship with the US.

The fact that there is space for dissent, cultural conflict means that the US is heading in the right direction.

Half the globe cares and knows more about what's happening in the US than in their own back yard. The other day 13 people were shot dead in a night of savagery in Khayelitsha. That's decline for you.

[Rinkals]

You don't think that the US is irrevocably divided?

[FalseBayFC]

You don't think that the US is irrevocably divided?

Not at all. Not much more so than say labour and conservative supporters in the UK. Or the National Front and Socialists and Macrons crowd in France. I would be more concerned with a situation like Russia, Belarus, Turkey or China. The USA has survived in its present form for centuries longer than those systems. A lot of what we're seeing in the US imo is a generational change. The republicans won't survive in their present form for very long and will have to move closer to the centre to achieve anything. Similarly with labour in the UK.

The divisions you talk about manifest very dramatically in the traditional and social media. Also in dramatic events like rallies and protests. How many countries in the world offer more personal freedom than the US? I would say none.

The US is also powering ahead in the most important area which is technology and human capital.

[Rinkals]

I'm not sure technology and human capital are entirely relevant here.

My initial post was in response to the suggestion that the Red States split off from the Blue States, something I am increasingly seeing as possible.

Certainly the idea would have been preposterous four and a half years ago.

[FalseBayFC]

I'm not sure technology and human capital are entirely relevant here.

My initial post was in response to the suggestion that the Red States split off from the Blue States, something I am increasingly seeing as possible.

Certainly the idea would have been preposterous four and a half years ago.

Apologies, I took your decline to mean a decline of Empire.
I don't think secession or a split is anything more than Trumpist dick waving really. I see they shut up real quick after the Capitol insurrectionists began to be indicted.

[Hal Jordan]

There's no split, except for the whole GOP right now, led by that worm McConnell and the Jim Crow voter suppression laws being cut 'n' pasted by GOP state senates.

The Democrats are just engaged in their usual efforts to do fuck all because they won't get in the gutter to fight dirty enough, plus their spectacular ability to divide and conquer themselves at every turn.

I am also pretty certain that a black man open carrying in Texas will have a life expectancy of a mayfly, it will be a toss up between who gets him first, the police or a citizen "in fear of their life".

[Rinkals]

I'm not sure technology and human capital are entirely relevant here.

My initial post was in response to the suggestion that the Red States split off from the Blue States, something I am increasingly seeing as possible.

Certainly the idea would have been preposterous four and a half years ago.

Apologies, I took your decline to mean a decline of Empire.
I don't think secession or a split is anything more than Trumpist dick waving really. I see they shut up real quick after the Capitol insurrectionists began to be indicted.

No need to apologise: a split would undoubtedly precipitate the fall of Empire.

We'll see whether Trump's support manifests itself as something more serious when he starts his rallies as he is threatening to.

Particularly if there are indictments brought against him.

[TB63]

Fuckwits like this don't help..

[Tichtheid]

She can call it Penelope if she likes, it’s still something no one outside of the military should have.

[Thor Sedan]

Why does this keep happening in the US?

Also in the US:









The fetishisation of guns in America is just straight up weird. Maybe this is because I come from a country where a gun is still seen as a tool - rather than a symbol of some warped sense of freedom.

[Hal Jordan]

Aren't they all Texans, and therefore starting from a baseline of drooling fuckwit?

[sockwithaticket]

I can understand possesing maybe 3 different guns - one each of a pistol, shotgun and some kind of rifle. These stockpiles that could supply a battalion are fucking weird.

[Tichtheid]

I can understand possesing maybe 3 different guns - one each of a pistol, shotgun and some kind of rifle. These stockpiles that could supply a battalion are fucking weird.

I could understand having one gun if I needed to protect my livestock from natural predators or put down a beast or two - I've had to do this with sheep, I used the farm's shotgun.

I've shot rabbits that were still there after gassing the warrens on several farms, but I've never owned a gun.

There is no reason to own a gun other than as a tool, if your workplace doesn't need it, then you shouldn't have it.

[fishfoodie]

I can understand possesing maybe 3 different guns - one each of a pistol, shotgun and some kind of rifle. These stockpiles that could supply a battalion are fucking weird.

I could understand having one gun if I needed to protect my livestock from natural predators or put down a beast or two - I've had to do this with sheep, I used the farm's shotgun.

I've shot rabbits that were still there after gassing the warrens on several farms, but I've never owned a gun.

There is no reason to own a gun other than as a tool, if your workplace doesn't need it, then you shouldn't have it.

I can't agree with that.

There's plenty of legitimate sport shooting; & target shooting is quite fun, even to someone who isn't a gun nut; but the types of guns for sport & target shooting aren't the problem; the problem with gun violence is predominantly handguns; & in mass shootings, it's military weapons in the hands of people who shouldn't be allow anything more deadly than bad breath.

[Tichtheid]

I can understand possesing maybe 3 different guns - one each of a pistol, shotgun and some kind of rifle. These stockpiles that could supply a battalion are fucking weird.

I could understand having one gun if I needed to protect my livestock from natural predators or put down a beast or two - I've had to do this with sheep, I used the farm's shotgun.

I've shot rabbits that were still there after gassing the warrens on several farms, but I've never owned a gun.

There is no reason to own a gun other than as a tool, if your workplace doesn't need it, then you shouldn't have it.

I can't agree with that.

There's plenty of legitimate sport shooting; & target shooting is quite fun, even to someone who isn't a gun nut; but the types of guns for sport & target shooting aren't the problem; the problem with gun violence is predominantly handguns; & in mass shootings, it's military weapons in the hands of people who shouldn't be allow anything more deadly than bad breath.

Couldn't the same fulfilment in target shooting be met with archery? In fact I would say there is far more to archery than shooting at a target with any kind of gun.

Why is shooting at a target with an air rifle different, if it's really about the marksmanship?

[Raggs]

Archery, no.

Air guns vs regular is also different. But if you're a target shooter there's no reason for the weapon to be anywhere but locked up at the range.

Or potentially all ammo at ranges so you can take your weapon to a variety of locations.

[Tichtheid]

Archery, no.

Air guns vs regular is also different. But if you're a target shooter there's no reason for the weapon to be anywhere but locked up at the range.

Or potentially all ammo at ranges so you can take your weapon to a variety of locations.

To my mind archery is more like playing a violin and having to deal with the bow and where to place your fingers on the instrument - it's very difficult.
Shooting a gun at a target is way less challenging, and perhaps more attractive to those not prepared to work at it.

I know it's not the same. I've shot rifles and shotguns, but if we are talking about ways to stop murders, then giving up the recoil and sense of power to focussing on the marksmanship is worthwhile imo

[Kawazaki]

Archery, no.

Air guns vs regular is also different. But if you're a target shooter there's no reason for the weapon to be anywhere but locked up at the range.

Or potentially all ammo at ranges so you can take your weapon to a variety of locations.

You touch on the only way I can see the USA getting itself out of the mess they're in. Don't go after the guns, that horse has bolted. Just go after the gunpowder. Restrict/ban it, whatever but throttling the manufacture of bullets will eventually lower gun deaths in the US.

A mate of mine used to be a serious crime officer in the Met and he said that in London getting hold of a gun was relatively easy if you were a criminal and new the right places to ask. The real struggle was getting hold of any ammunition to load them with.

Of course the above relies on Americans becoming as repulsed by mass shootings as the rest of the world is.

[Raggs]

Archery, no.

Air guns vs regular is also different. But if you're a target shooter there's no reason for the weapon to be anywhere but locked up at the range.

Or potentially all ammo at ranges so you can take your weapon to a variety of locations.

To my mind archery is more like playing a violin and having to deal with the bow and where to place your fingers on the instrument - it's very difficult.
Shooting a gun at a target is way less challenging, and perhaps more attractive to those not prepared to work at it.

I know it's not the same. I've shot rifles and shotguns, but if we are talking about ways to stop murders, then giving up the recoil and sense of power to focussing on the marksmanship is worthwhile imo

Archery is too different to be accessible to many. The physical requirements alone produce very different requirements from the shooter. I don't think it's a reasonable replacement.

[Kawazaki]

Nerf guns

[TB63]

[mat the expat]

Archery is too different to be accessible to many. The physical requirements alone produce very different requirements from the shooter. I don't think it's a reasonable replacement.

No it isn't - it's a very varied sport - I practice two different variants and there are all body types involved. Disabled Archery is huge.

[Raggs]

Archery is too different to be accessible to many. The physical requirements alone produce very different requirements from the shooter. I don't think it's a reasonable replacement.

No it isn't - it's a very varied sport - I practice two different variants and there are all body types involved. Disabled Archery is huge.

My error then. Do you get blind archery? I would imagine it's possible but wonder how it's done exactly.

If you are unable to draw the bow, is there a huge difference between disabled archery and shooting a rifle?

[sockwithaticket]

Archery, no.

Air guns vs regular is also different. But if you're a target shooter there's no reason for the weapon to be anywhere but locked up at the range.

Or potentially all ammo at ranges so you can take your weapon to a variety of locations.

You touch on the only way I can see the USA getting itself out of the mess they're in. Don't go after the guns, that horse has bolted. Just go after the gunpowder. Restrict/ban it, whatever but throttling the manufacture of bullets will eventually lower gun deaths in the US.

A mate of mine used to be a serious crime officer in the Met and he said that in London getting hold of a gun was relatively easy if you were a criminal and new the right places to ask. The real struggle was getting hold of any ammunition to load them with.

Of course the above relies on Americans becoming as repulsed by mass shootings as the rest of the world is.

Chris Rock has an old stand up bit about making bullets $5000 each. With the number of guns out there, ammunition control probably is one of the easier (relatively speaking) things to attempt. I'm sure some of these nutters have plenty stockpiled, though.

[Rinkals]

You don't think that the US is irrevocably divided?

Not at all. Not much more so than say labour and conservative supporters in the UK. Or the National Front and Socialists and Macrons crowd in France. .

The US is also powering ahead in the most important area which is technology and human capital.

Sorry but this is BS.

This country has never been so divided maybe since 1864. When you see the hate between people and pro trump's "patriots " wearing t-shirts with I rather be Russian than democrat, you know that things will get worse.

My Twitter feeds are inundated with Trump supporters saying "Trump was right".

It's hard to know whether there are that many Trump supporters or whether it's bots, but 74 million voters voted for the fucker and a large percentage of them cannot bring themselves to believe that he lost the election.

Given the inclination for gun violence, surely what Trump is doing is at least as serious as the trope of yelling "FIRE" in a crowded cinema?

Still, I'm not American and if they want to burn their own house down, I suppose it's up to them.

It does have implications for Western Democracy, though.