Last minute Ireland v Italy fred

[Torquemada 1420]

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think refs are cheats and I don't think they are corrupt, but there is unconscious bias and confirmation bias at work - everyone does this, I've just done it by pointing out a shoulder charge to Rory Darge's head and perhaps there was an incident of foul play from Scotland that I didn't notice.

The point is that referees are supposed to be helped by TMOs to be as neutral, fair and consistent as possible.

I don't think corruption comes into it but there are clear instances of ref bias which have to be conscious, so one side are they. I could pull one every week in T14.

[redderneck]

Crowley should just pick 15 hookers next time

The old Berlusconi Gambit.

[GogLais]

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think refs are cheats and I don't think they are corrupt, but there is unconscious bias and confirmation bias at work

I was thinking about this with respect to the English try on Saturday. Elias clearly asks the ref to review it, which I don't think he does after every ffyked up lineout. He's waved away, presumably on the assumption that our lineout is dodgy so it's almost certainly a Welsh mistake.
I'm not saying that there was an English offence but it could have been looked at. Likewise I regularly hear the comment that once a ref decides that one team has the upper hand in the scrum then that's it for the rest of the game, which may make decision making easier but sounds a bit off.

[sturginho]

Crowley should just pick 15 hookers next time

The old Berlusconi Gambit.

It might even boost ratings

[Torquemada 1420]

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think refs are cheats and I don't think they are corrupt, but there is unconscious bias and confirmation bias at work

I was thinking about this with respect to the English try on Saturday. Elias clearly asks the ref to review it, which I don't think he does after every ffyked up lineout. He's waved away, presumably on the assumption that our lineout is dodgy so it's almost certainly a Welsh mistake.
I'm not saying that there was an English offence but it could have been looked at. Likewise I regularly hear the comment that once a ref decides that one team has the upper hand in the scrum then that's it for the rest of the game, which may make decision making easier but sounds a bit off.

There was clearly an English offence as there was at most of the lineouts: that's why you have to have someone who can talk (not scream and shout) to the ref. That said, that throw was so sh*t, it would have made no difference if England had held down all of the Welsh jumpers and so I'm struggling to sympathise.

[GogLais]

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think refs are cheats and I don't think they are corrupt, but there is unconscious bias and confirmation bias at work

I was thinking about this with respect to the English try on Saturday. Elias clearly asks the ref to review it, which I don't think he does after every ffyked up lineout. He's waved away, presumably on the assumption that our lineout is dodgy so it's almost certainly a Welsh mistake.
I'm not saying that there was an English offence but it could have been looked at. Likewise I regularly hear the comment that once a ref decides that one team has the upper hand in the scrum then that's it for the rest of the game, which may make decision making easier but sounds a bit off.

There was clearly an English offence as there was at most of the lineouts: that's why you have to have someone who can talk (not scream and shout) to the ref. That said, that throw was so sh*t, it would have made no difference if England had held down all of the Welsh jumpers and so I'm struggling to sympathise.

I’m not after sympathy, as I’ve tried to explain I’m suggesting that if the ref starts with the justified assumption that the Welsh (or anybody else’s) line out is dodgy it’s wrong to referee it with that presumption.

[Torquemada 1420]

I was thinking about this with respect to the English try on Saturday. Elias clearly asks the ref to review it, which I don't think he does after every ffyked up lineout. He's waved away, presumably on the assumption that our lineout is dodgy so it's almost certainly a Welsh mistake.
I'm not saying that there was an English offence but it could have been looked at. Likewise I regularly hear the comment that once a ref decides that one team has the upper hand in the scrum then that's it for the rest of the game, which may make decision making easier but sounds a bit off.

There was clearly an English offence as there was at most of the lineouts: that's why you have to have someone who can talk (not scream and shout) to the ref. That said, that throw was so sh*t, it would have made no difference if England had held down all of the Welsh jumpers and so I'm struggling to sympathise.

I’m not after sympathy, as I’ve tried to explain I’m suggesting that if the ref starts with the justified assumption that the Welsh (or anybody else’s) line out is dodgy it’s wrong to referee it with that presumption.

Sorry. Not aimed at you but the Welsh team's reaction after the score. And you are right but I think refs want to ease their decision making angsts and when they think they have a justification for one area (scrums being the main one), they simply switch on auto pilot. There was a standing joke in the Fre rugby media regarding Julian Bardy who was a notorious card offender for much of his career and as a result, he'd get them dished out to him for offences no other player would suffer the same sanction for.

[Lobby]

I was thinking about this with respect to the English try on Saturday. Elias clearly asks the ref to review it, which I don't think he does after every ffyked up lineout. He's waved away, presumably on the assumption that our lineout is dodgy so it's almost certainly a Welsh mistake.
I'm not saying that there was an English offence but it could have been looked at. Likewise I regularly hear the comment that once a ref decides that one team has the upper hand in the scrum then that's it for the rest of the game, which may make decision making easier but sounds a bit off.

There was clearly an English offence as there was at most of the lineouts: that's why you have to have someone who can talk (not scream and shout) to the ref. That said, that throw was so sh*t, it would have made no difference if England had held down all of the Welsh jumpers and so I'm struggling to sympathise.

I’m not after sympathy, as I’ve tried to explain I’m suggesting that if the ref starts with the justified assumption that the Welsh (or anybody else’s) line out is dodgy it’s wrong to referee it with that presumption.

It was the second time Elias had overthrown his jumpers and delivered the ball straight into Dombrandt’s grateful hands, and he also had several other dodgy throws during the match, so even if the ref hadn’t started with an assumption about the Welsh line out, based just on the previous line outs in the match, it wasn’t unreasonable for him to conclude that Elias had fucked it up again.

And, as Torque has pointed out, he had indeed fucked up again, and any English offence was unlikely to have had any effect on the overthrow.

With all the Welsh players waving their arms and shouting at him after the try, it was possible that the ref thought they were complaining that the ball hadn’t been grounded, rather than an offence in the line out. As I recall the ref did check the grounding with the TMO, although this didn’t require him to check the replay himself, as the try was clearly grounded.

Finally, and as Eddie Jones pointed out in the press conferences, Wales benefited from 2 extremely dodgy tries last year, so sometimes you get the breaks, and sometimes you don’t.

[GogLais]

There was clearly an English offence as there was at most of the lineouts: that's why you have to have someone who can talk (not scream and shout) to the ref. That said, that throw was so sh*t, it would have made no difference if England had held down all of the Welsh jumpers and so I'm struggling to sympathise.

I’m not after sympathy, as I’ve tried to explain I’m suggesting that if the ref starts with the justified assumption that the Welsh (or anybody else’s) line out is dodgy it’s wrong to referee it with that presumption.

It was the second time Elias had overthrown his jumpers and delivered the ball straight into Dombrandt’s grateful hands, and he also had several other dodgy throws during the match, so even if the ref hadn’t started with an assumption about the Welsh line out, based just on the previous line outs in the match, it wasn’t unreasonable for him to conclude that Elias had fucked it up again.

And, as Torque has pointed out, he had indeed fucked up again, and any English offence was unlikely to have had any effect on the overthrow.

With all the Welsh players waving their arms and shouting at him after the try, it was possible that the ref thought they were complaining that the ball hadn’t been grounded, rather than an offence in the line out. As I recall the ref did check the grounding with the TMO, although this didn’t require him to check the replay himself, as the try was clearly grounded.

Finally, and as Eddie Jones pointed out in the press conferences, Wales benefited from 2 extremely dodgy tries last year, so sometimes you get the breaks, and sometimes you don’t.

I appreciate it's a tough job being a ref but the argument that they've messed up a previous line out so they've probably messed up this one as well is the sort of issue that triggered this discussion. I've no problem with the grounding and the fact that we might have got away with a couple last year is irrelevant to what we started talking about.

[Paddington Bear]

Fwiw on the Dombrant try I (genuinely) didn't notice anything at all at the time. Given Adamson didn't either, they'd have needed conclusive evidence to overturn the try. I've now watched a few replays and on the first one again I genuinely didn't see anything meaningful. Itoje clearly makes contact with him but even after a few more replays I'm very unconvinced it met the standard to be overturned. I think it's very likely that even had they looked they'd have taken one cursory glance, said 'nothing conclusive' and awarded the try.

Whilst Gog is right that two wrongs don't make a right, last year was an absolute joke. There's some karmic justice to England getting the rub of the green this year.

Edit - players of all sides running around hands in the air is getting pretty unpleasant. They need to formalise a challenge procedure IMHO.

[Slick]

Or even better, have no fucking challenges