Another mass shooting in the US

[Gumboot]

The reality is there is absolutely nothing they can do now. It has gone too far.

The best we can do is to make sure the utter mentalness doesn’t break out of America, ensure that we never go down that route. They are fucked and frankly, fuck them

That horse has long since bolted...

American guns are flooding into Mexico and wreaking havoc

Even as Republican members of Congress accuse Joe Biden of failing to secure the nation’s southern border, Mexico is facing a growing problem of securing its northern border. Guns from the United States are pouring into Mexico, arming violent drug gangs...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... al-weapons

[Hugo]

The reality is there is absolutely nothing they can do now. It has gone too far.

The best we can do is to make sure the utter mentalness doesn’t break out of America, ensure that we never go down that route. They are fucked and frankly, fuck them

That horse has long since bolted...

American guns are flooding into Mexico and wreaking havoc

Even as Republican members of Congress accuse Joe Biden of failing to secure the nation’s southern border, Mexico is facing a growing problem of securing its northern border. Guns from the United States are pouring into Mexico, arming violent drug gangs...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... al-weapons

On that note, recently read a book on the narcos by the El Paso border - Cuidad Juarez. The thesis was that neoliberalism/NAFTA just destroyed Mexico.

[Niegs]

Ultrasound wand up the ass for all wannabe gun owners!

[Fonz]

The reality is there is absolutely nothing they can do now. It has gone too far.

This is really all that needs to be said.

[Blackmac]

It's horrible that every time some piece of shit from the NRA comes out to defend this shit, you desperately want their kid or grand kids to be next.

[Blackmac]

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/n ... 90529.html

I think what we can take from the police response here, and its not the first time they have scratched their arses when bullets have been flying about, that you have to.reach a critical mass of people armed as a percentage will be too afraid to act. That increases in conservative areas as they are well known pussies. I think if you groomed, in a good way, a selection of students and armed them you would have crack troops inside the school. You have to start thinking outside the box

US cops not so good at shooting people who can actually shoot back.

[Gumboot]

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/n ... 90529.html

I think what we can take from the police response here, and its not the first time they have scratched their arses when bullets have been flying about, that you have to.reach a critical mass of people armed as a percentage will be too afraid to act. That increases in conservative areas as they are well known pussies. I think if you groomed, in a good way, a selection of students and armed them you would have crack troops inside the school. You have to start thinking outside the box

US cops not so good at shooting people who can actually shoot back.

So much for the "good guy with a gun" defence.

[Rinkals]

The reality is there is absolutely nothing they can do now. It has gone too far.

This is really all that needs to be said.

I was watching Beto O'Rouke get shouted down and dragged out of the hall for "politicising the situation".

If you can't speak about the damage that profligate gun ownership does now, when can you speak about it?

[robmatic]

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/n ... 90529.html

I think what we can take from the police response here, and its not the first time they have scratched their arses when bullets have been flying about, that you have to.reach a critical mass of people armed as a percentage will be too afraid to act. That increases in conservative areas as they are well known pussies. I think if you groomed, in a good way, a selection of students and armed them you would have crack troops inside the school. You have to start thinking outside the box

US cops not so good at shooting people who can actually shoot back.

This little town has a fully kitted out SWAT team who did nothing.

[Tichtheid]

The reality is there is absolutely nothing they can do now. It has gone too far.

This is really all that needs to be said.

I was watching Beto O'Rouke get shouted down and dragged out of the hall for "politicising the situation".

If you can't speak about the damage that profligate gun ownership does now, when can you speak about it?

There was a Texan Republican governor on R4 this morning toeing the “blame the shooter not the gun” line.

It was a bit frustrating that the interviewer didn’t ask the follow up, “Are you saying Americans are inherently more murderously violent than citizens of other countries?”

A horrible stat that came out of that article is that if a child or teenager dies in the US, the cause is most likely to be gun violence.

[sockwithaticket]

The reality is there is absolutely nothing they can do now. It has gone too far.

This is really all that needs to be said.

I was watching Beto O'Rouke get shouted down and dragged out of the hall for "politicising the situation".

If you can't speak about the damage that profligate gun ownership does now, when can you speak about it?

Standard approach from the scum at this point. That line is now as predictable as 'thoughts and prayers' Of course they don't want anyone to think for a moment about the politics of it, because then it may become apparent which party is up to its eyeballs in NRA money and thinks dead kids are a fair price for personal enrichment.

[Torquemada 1420]

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/n ... 90529.html

I think what we can take from the police response here, and its not the first time they have scratched their arses when bullets have been flying about, that you have to.reach a critical mass of people armed as a percentage will be too afraid to act. That increases in conservative areas as they are well known pussies. I think if you groomed, in a good way, a selection of students and armed them you would have crack troops inside the school. You have to start thinking outside the box

US cops not so good at shooting people who can actually shoot back.

Great at shooting unarmed blacks or themselves in the feet though.

[Torquemada 1420]

A horrible stat that came out of that article is that if a child or teenager dies in the US, the cause is most likely to be gun violence.

Yes. See above ^^^^

More teenagers now die in the US from guns than from road accidents

[I like neeps]

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/n ... 90529.html

I think what we can take from the police response here, and its not the first time they have scratched their arses when bullets have been flying about, that you have to.reach a critical mass of people armed as a percentage will be too afraid to act. That increases in conservative areas as they are well known pussies. I think if you groomed, in a good way, a selection of students and armed them you would have crack troops inside the school. You have to start thinking outside the box

There is no good way to groom children to form a militia in a school. That's going to be emotionally very damaging.

Cops are pussies but they're also just people. They don't want to be shot at by someone with an AR-15.

[sockwithaticket]

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/n ... 90529.html

I think what we can take from the police response here, and its not the first time they have scratched their arses when bullets have been flying about, that you have to.reach a critical mass of people armed as a percentage will be too afraid to act. That increases in conservative areas as they are well known pussies. I think if you groomed, in a good way, a selection of students and armed them you would have crack troops inside the school. You have to start thinking outside the box

There is no good way to groom children to form a militia in a school. That's going to be emotionally very damaging.

Cops are pussies but they're also just people. They don't want to be shot at by someone with an AR-15.

Then don't become a cop in America. In a country awash with weapons and violent incidents there's a non-negligible chance to end up in that situation whether or not you chose to be.

They're ok though because the Supreme Court ruled a while back that serve and protect is just a slogan, cops don't actually have any obligation to protect citizens. Which begs the questions what are they actually for and why show up to these incidents if not to help?

[I like neeps]

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/n ... 90529.html

I think what we can take from the police response here, and its not the first time they have scratched their arses when bullets have been flying about, that you have to.reach a critical mass of people armed as a percentage will be too afraid to act. That increases in conservative areas as they are well known pussies. I think if you groomed, in a good way, a selection of students and armed them you would have crack troops inside the school. You have to start thinking outside the box

There is no good way to groom children to form a militia in a school. That's going to be emotionally very damaging.

Cops are pussies but they're also just people. They don't want to be shot at by someone with an AR-15.

Then don't become a cop in America. In a country awash with weapons and violent incidents there's a non-negligible chance to end up in that situation whether or not you chose to be.

They're ok though because the Supreme Court ruled a while back that serve and protect is just a slogan, cops don't actually have any obligation to protect citizens. Which begs the questions what are they actually for and why show up to these incidents if not to help?

Sure but that's unrealistic isn't it? You won't get many recruits if you're going one on one with rampaging men with an AR-15 and you're armed with a handgun.

[sockwithaticket]

There is no good way to groom children to form a militia in a school. That's going to be emotionally very damaging.

Cops are pussies but they're also just people. They don't want to be shot at by someone with an AR-15.

Then don't become a cop in America. In a country awash with weapons and violent incidents there's a non-negligible chance to end up in that situation whether or not you chose to be.

They're ok though because the Supreme Court ruled a while back that serve and protect is just a slogan, cops don't actually have any obligation to protect citizens. Which begs the questions what are they actually for and why show up to these incidents if not to help?

Sure but that's unrealistic isn't it? You won't get many recruits if you're going one on one with rampaging men with an AR-15 and you're armed with a handgun.

Maybe not hiring people who won't try and stop someone who's shooting kids is what the police should be doing over there? Their society has a particular set of circumstances which means their law enforcement need to be willing to stand up to an active shooter. Not every state has a border patrol who can swing in and take care of things if the police are too scared.

Most cops have some kind of rifle and a shotgun in their squad car, so there's no need to go in with just the pistol. It's going to be very rare that they're 1 v 1, they'll typically have a partner.

[weegie01]

Then don't become a cop in America. In a country awash with weapons and violent incidents there's a non-negligible chance to end up in that situation whether or not you chose to be.

They're ok though because the Supreme Court ruled a while back that serve and protect is just a slogan, cops don't actually have any obligation to protect citizens. Which begs the questions what are they actually for and why show up to these incidents if not to help?

Sure but that's unrealistic isn't it? You won't get many recruits if you're going one on one with rampaging men with an AR-15 and you're armed with a handgun.

Maybe not hiring people who won't try and stop someone who's shooting kids is what the police should be doing over there? Their society has a particular set of circumstances which means their law enforcement need to be willing to stand up to an active shooter. Not every state has a border patrol who can swing in and take care of things if the police are too scared.

Most cops have some kind of rifle and a shotgun in their squad car, so there's no need to go in with just the pistol. It's going to be very rare that they're 1 v 1, they'll typically have a partner.

Without going into details, my father was a failure as a parent and as a human being. An all round thoroughly unpleasant human being.

He was also a Scottish policeman. There is no doubt that we are talking different worlds, but despite my loathing of him, one thing I am sure about is that if it was a question of him, or his colleagues, putting their lives at risk to stop children dying, they would have done something.

[Kawazaki]

It's horrible that every time some piece of shit from the NRA comes out to defend this shit, you desperately want their kid or grand kids to be next.

The chances are very high that some or all of the parents of the children killed are gun owners and keen advocates of the 2nd Amendment. You know the type, they're Texans.

[sockwithaticket]

Sure but that's unrealistic isn't it? You won't get many recruits if you're going one on one with rampaging men with an AR-15 and you're armed with a handgun.

Maybe not hiring people who won't try and stop someone who's shooting kids is what the police should be doing over there? Their society has a particular set of circumstances which means their law enforcement need to be willing to stand up to an active shooter. Not every state has a border patrol who can swing in and take care of things if the police are too scared.

Most cops have some kind of rifle and a shotgun in their squad car, so there's no need to go in with just the pistol. It's going to be very rare that they're 1 v 1, they'll typically have a partner.

Without going into details, my father was a failure as a parent and as a human being. An all round thoroughly unpleasant human being.

He was also a Scottish policeman. There is no doubt that we are talking different worlds, but despite my loathing of him, one thing I am sure about is that if it was a question of him, or his colleagues, putting their lives at risk to stop children dying, they would have done something.

Sorry about your dad.

That's the point really, there a certain character qualities that should be a requirement for jobs like police officer and one of those surely has to be a willingness to assist vulnerable members of the public even at personal safety risk. It's fine if a person isn't cut out for that, but that also means they can't do the job.

[sockwithaticket]

It's horrible that every time some piece of shit from the NRA comes out to defend this shit, you desperately want their kid or grand kids to be next.

The chances are very high that some or all of the parents of the children killed are gun owners and keen advocates of the 2nd Amendment. You know the type, they're Texans.

Saw on reddit that people have already found one grieving father who was posting pro-Kyle Rittenhouse and other second amendment stuff in the recent past.

I keep seeing people say that Beto O'Rourke's campaign for Texas governor was dead in the water before this due to his stance on guns (mandatory background checks, safe storage, etc. basic stuff that sane people think makes sense) and that openly talking about such measures in the wake of this incident will kill his bid all over again rather than revive it. Texas

[Rinkals]

It's horrible that every time some piece of shit from the NRA comes out to defend this shit, you desperately want their kid or grand kids to be next.

The chances are very high that some or all of the parents of the children killed are gun owners and keen advocates of the 2nd Amendment. You know the type, they're Texans.

Saw on reddit that people have already found one grieving father who was posting pro-Kyle Rittenhouse and other second amendment stuff in the recent past.

I keep seeing people say that Beto O'Rourke's campaign for Texas governor was dead in the water before this due to his stance on guns (mandatory background checks, safe storage, etc. basic stuff that sane people think makes sense) and that openly talking about such measures in the wake of this incident will kill his bid all over again rather than revive it. Texas

I would like to be proved wrong, but I can't see him getting within touching distance of Abbott. It was the one issue that made his candidature for the 'Dem nomination a complete non-starter, but in Texas, he's even at more of a disadvantage.

[sockwithaticket]

The chances are very high that some or all of the parents of the children killed are gun owners and keen advocates of the 2nd Amendment. You know the type, they're Texans.

Saw on reddit that people have already found one grieving father who was posting pro-Kyle Rittenhouse and other second amendment stuff in the recent past.

I keep seeing people say that Beto O'Rourke's campaign for Texas governor was dead in the water before this due to his stance on guns (mandatory background checks, safe storage, etc. basic stuff that sane people think makes sense) and that openly talking about such measures in the wake of this incident will kill his bid all over again rather than revive it. Texas

I would like to be proved wrong, but I can't see him getting within touching distance of Abbott. It was the one issue that made his candidature for the 'Dem nomination a complete non-starter, but in Texas, he's even at more of a disadvantage.

Texas is definitely heading purple rather than red, but at the moment it's more of a burgundy and definitely way too early for someone like O'Rourke.

[Blackmac]

Maybe not hiring people who won't try and stop someone who's shooting kids is what the police should be doing over there? Their society has a particular set of circumstances which means their law enforcement need to be willing to stand up to an active shooter. Not every state has a border patrol who can swing in and take care of things if the police are too scared.

Most cops have some kind of rifle and a shotgun in their squad car, so there's no need to go in with just the pistol. It's going to be very rare that they're 1 v 1, they'll typically have a partner.

Without going into details, my father was a failure as a parent and as a human being. An all round thoroughly unpleasant human being.

He was also a Scottish policeman. There is no doubt that we are talking different worlds, but despite my loathing of him, one thing I am sure about is that if it was a question of him, or his colleagues, putting their lives at risk to stop children dying, they would have done something.

Sorry about your dad.

That's the point really, there a certain character qualities that should be a requirement for jobs like police officer and one of those surely has to be a willingness to assist vulnerable members of the public even at personal safety risk. It's fine if a person isn't cut out for that, but that also means they can't do the job.

When I joined the job a significant minority were ex-forces, lots of Falklands and NI vets. Many others were bizarrely ex-miners. The main requirement was being able to keep a police hat 5'10 off the ground. There were some real, big hard bastards, for a reason, we were a force to keep society safe.
There were no armed response vehicles but all ex-forces were authorised to draw handguns from a local private armoury.

It is totally changed days and the vast majority of cops now are young, university educated kids who have no concept or ability about how to deal with truly violent situations. Also handicapped by the fact that the few that can know they will get no backing at all to deal with the aftermath.

Oddly when the first armed response vehicle were muted, the majority of ex-forces refused to apply and the general consensus was that those that did volunteer were the wrong type.

[TheFrog]

A horrible stat that came out of that article is that if a child or teenager dies in the US, the cause is most likely to be gun violence.

Yes. See above ^^^^

More teenagers now die in the US from guns than from road accidents

And what we should not forget is that behind these statistics, fo one such shooting, they are numerous murders committed with small fire arms. It is not just a problem of mad shooters armed with automatic riffles.

[notfatcat]

September 2019

“Hell yes, we’re going to take your AR-15, your AK-47,” O’Rourke said

February 2022

“I’m not interested in taking anything from anyone,” O’Rourke said

[petej]

September 2019

“Hell yes, we’re going to take your AR-15, your AK-47,” O’Rourke said

February 2022

“I’m not interested in taking anything from anyone,” O’Rourke said

Rourke knows to win or get close he can't say what he did in 2019.

[notfatcat]

Yes, people will know that he's full of shit, although that's nothing unique for a politician. People who like their guns simply won't trust him, even if they agree that gun control needs tightening in their state.

[Kawazaki]

If I venture onto Twitter and read a thread that has those American 2nd amendment types (you know the type), what never fails to happen is that they will ask how can they be expected to give up their guns when obviously the criminals won't give up theirs?

And pretty much any development of the conversation ends right there. Done.

You can ask them if they are a criminal to which they will reply no.
You can ask them would they shoot somebody to which they will reply no.
So then you point out to them what difference will them having a gun make and they'll envisage all kinds of scenarios where they will get to use their gun before the criminal uses theirs.
You point out that a criminal is less likely to shoot you if you're not pointing a gun at them and so on and so forth...

[Uncle fester]

This is really all that needs to be said.

I was watching Beto O'Rouke get shouted down and dragged out of the hall for "politicising the situation".

If you can't speak about the damage that profligate gun ownership does now, when can you speak about it?

There was a Texan Republican governor on R4 this morning toeing the “blame the shooter not the gun” line.

It was a bit frustrating that the interviewer didn’t ask the follow up, “Are you saying Americans are inherently more murderously violent than citizens of other countries?”

A horrible stat that came out of that article is that if a child or teenager dies in the US, the cause is most likely to be gun violence.

It's a question worth asking. In Bowling For Columbine, Moore looked at Canada which has broadly similar gun laws and hunting culture but nowhere near the same number of gun deaths.

You could ask the same question re Switzerland. Loads of guns. They haven't had a mass shooting in decades.

Moore's conclusion was that wealth inequality and poverty was a key driver.

[robmatic]

If I venture onto Twitter and read a thread that has those American 2nd amendment types (you know the type), what never fails to happen is that they will ask how can they be expected to give up their guns when obviously the criminals won't give up theirs?

And pretty much any development of the conversation ends right there. Done.

You can ask them if they are a criminal to which they will reply no.
You can ask them would they shoot somebody to which they will reply no.
So then you point out to them what difference will them having a gun make and they'll envisage all kinds of scenarios where they will get to use their gun before the criminal uses theirs.
You point out that a criminal is less likely to shoot you if you're not pointing a gun at them and so on and so forth...

To be honest, I can't think of too many situations where possessing a gun would prevent me being a victim of crime. Are carjackings a big thing in the US? Armed home invasions during daylight hours?

[sockwithaticket]

I was watching Beto O'Rouke get shouted down and dragged out of the hall for "politicising the situation".

If you can't speak about the damage that profligate gun ownership does now, when can you speak about it?

There was a Texan Republican governor on R4 this morning toeing the “blame the shooter not the gun” line.

It was a bit frustrating that the interviewer didn’t ask the follow up, “Are you saying Americans are inherently more murderously violent than citizens of other countries?”

A horrible stat that came out of that article is that if a child or teenager dies in the US, the cause is most likely to be gun violence.

It's a question worth asking. In Bowling For Columbine, Moore looked at Canada which has broadly similar gun laws and hunting culture but nowhere near the same number of gun deaths.

You could ask the same question re Switzerland. Loads of guns. They haven't had a mass shooting in decades.

Moore's conclusion was that wealth inequality and poverty was a key driver.

Which is over-simplifying it. It contributes to explaining some gun violence, but laws and cultural attitudes are still hugely important contributory factors. Switzerland couldn't be more different to the US in either respect. Canada also diverges in notable ways, their gun culture is more or less strictly hunting whereas in the US, from the revoltion through to the push west, civil war and beyond they've been tied to preserving freedom.

[Hugo]

The gun culture in the US is a function of the demand by slave owning states to be able to raise armed militia in order to suppress slave revolts.

In essence Rittenhouse was doing what the 2nd amendment was designed for - to allow white people to use arms to protect capital.

[Niegs]

Cruz being Cruz...




(One of the top comments shares some video from parents begging cops to go in and cops detaining one who wanted to. I get that there's probably procedure, maybe even flawed procedure, but not a good look when many US cops these days are tooled up to the gills in expensive military-grade gear.)

[weegie01]

When I joined the job a significant minority were ex-forces, lots of Falklands and NI vets. Many others were bizarrely ex-miners. The main requirement was being able to keep a police hat 5'10 off the ground. There were some real, big hard bastards, for a reason, we were a force to keep society safe.

There were no armed response vehicles but all ex-forces were authorised to draw handguns from a local private armoury.

It is totally changed days and the vast majority of cops now are young, university educated kids who have no concept or ability about how to deal with truly violent situations. Also handicapped by the fact that the few that can know they will get no backing at all to deal with the aftermath.

Oddly when the first armed response vehicle were muted, the majority of ex-forces refused to apply and the general consensus was that those that did volunteer were the wrong type.

My father was a generation before that. He had enlisted in the Navy towards the end of WWII and joined the police when demobbed.

He was over 6 foot and the product of West Coast crofting. They were hard men, not men you messed with, and whatever else, I do respect that he had a clear sense of duty, and that was to protect the public.

I have mentioned before that my son was working doors in Edinburgh. He has now set up a security firm with a pal and are doing some decent contracts. They have a couple of ex-army guys working for them and it strikes me that these guys would have been the type to go into the police in my father's day. Not academically talented, but decent guys who are not afraid to put themselves at physical risk to do their job while playing (mostly) by the rules.

[Blackmac]

When I joined the job a significant minority were ex-forces, lots of Falklands and NI vets. Many others were bizarrely ex-miners. The main requirement was being able to keep a police hat 5'10 off the ground. There were some real, big hard bastards, for a reason, we were a force to keep society safe.

There were no armed response vehicles but all ex-forces were authorised to draw handguns from a local private armoury.

It is totally changed days and the vast majority of cops now are young, university educated kids who have no concept or ability about how to deal with truly violent situations. Also handicapped by the fact that the few that can know they will get no backing at all to deal with the aftermath.

Oddly when the first armed response vehicle were muted, the majority of ex-forces refused to apply and the general consensus was that those that did volunteer were the wrong type.

My father was a generation before that. He had enlisted in the Navy towards the end of WWII and joined the police when demobbed.

He was over 6 foot and the product of West Coast crofting. They were hard men, not men you messed with, and whatever else, I do respect that he had a clear sense of duty, and that was to protect the public.

I have mentioned before that my son was working doors in Edinburgh. He has now set up a security firm with a pal and are doing some decent contracts. They have a couple of ex-army guys working for them and it strikes me that these guys would have been the type to go into the police in my father's day. Not academically talented, but decent guys who are not afraid to put themselves at physical risk to do their job while playing (mostly) by the rules.

Totally agree. There is far too much emphasis on education in the recruiting process, when it is blatantly obvious that many do not have either the physical or mental attributes required to be good officers. Most ex forces are incredibly adaptable and would be more than capable of doing almost any job available in the police, however many of these kids are never going to attain the mental and physical attributes that are required to be effective police officers.

Your comment about "mostly" by the rules is quite telling. It's a dirty bloody job and whilst I accept there are lines that cannot be crossed, it's always been very difficult to do it without blurring a few.

[geordie_6]

A horrible stat that came out of that article is that if a child or teenager dies in the US, the cause is most likely to be gun violence.

Yes. See above ^^^^

More teenagers now die in the US from guns than from road accidents

And what we should not forget is that behind these statistics, fo one such shooting, they are numerous murders committed with small fire arms. It is not just a problem of mad shooters armed with automatic riffles.

The frequency of which they are used in mass shooting incidents/school shootings is significant though.

[Masterji]

All these shootings become world wide news but if this happened any where else in the World it be worth about a minutes news.
BTW
Before anyone says anything, my heart bleeds for the parents and families of the victims.

[Uncle fester]

[Uncle fester]

Profile of the victims.
Tough read.
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/us/202 ... e-victims/