Another mass shooting in the US

[sockwithaticket]

The chances are very high that some or all of the parents of the children killed are gun owners and keen advocates of the 2nd Amendment. You know the type, they're Texans.

Saw on reddit that people have already found one grieving father who was posting pro-Kyle Rittenhouse and other second amendment stuff in the recent past.

I keep seeing people say that Beto O'Rourke's campaign for Texas governor was dead in the water before this due to his stance on guns (mandatory background checks, safe storage, etc. basic stuff that sane people think makes sense) and that openly talking about such measures in the wake of this incident will kill his bid all over again rather than revive it. Texas

I would like to be proved wrong, but I can't see him getting within touching distance of Abbott. It was the one issue that made his candidature for the 'Dem nomination a complete non-starter, but in Texas, he's even at more of a disadvantage.

Texas is definitely heading purple rather than red, but at the moment it's more of a burgundy and definitely way too early for someone like O'Rourke.

[Blackmac]

Maybe not hiring people who won't try and stop someone who's shooting kids is what the police should be doing over there? Their society has a particular set of circumstances which means their law enforcement need to be willing to stand up to an active shooter. Not every state has a border patrol who can swing in and take care of things if the police are too scared.

Most cops have some kind of rifle and a shotgun in their squad car, so there's no need to go in with just the pistol. It's going to be very rare that they're 1 v 1, they'll typically have a partner.

Without going into details, my father was a failure as a parent and as a human being. An all round thoroughly unpleasant human being.

He was also a Scottish policeman. There is no doubt that we are talking different worlds, but despite my loathing of him, one thing I am sure about is that if it was a question of him, or his colleagues, putting their lives at risk to stop children dying, they would have done something.

Sorry about your dad.

That's the point really, there a certain character qualities that should be a requirement for jobs like police officer and one of those surely has to be a willingness to assist vulnerable members of the public even at personal safety risk. It's fine if a person isn't cut out for that, but that also means they can't do the job.

When I joined the job a significant minority were ex-forces, lots of Falklands and NI vets. Many others were bizarrely ex-miners. The main requirement was being able to keep a police hat 5'10 off the ground. There were some real, big hard bastards, for a reason, we were a force to keep society safe.
There were no armed response vehicles but all ex-forces were authorised to draw handguns from a local private armoury.

It is totally changed days and the vast majority of cops now are young, university educated kids who have no concept or ability about how to deal with truly violent situations. Also handicapped by the fact that the few that can know they will get no backing at all to deal with the aftermath.

Oddly when the first armed response vehicle were muted, the majority of ex-forces refused to apply and the general consensus was that those that did volunteer were the wrong type.

[TheFrog]

A horrible stat that came out of that article is that if a child or teenager dies in the US, the cause is most likely to be gun violence.

Yes. See above ^^^^

More teenagers now die in the US from guns than from road accidents

And what we should not forget is that behind these statistics, fo one such shooting, they are numerous murders committed with small fire arms. It is not just a problem of mad shooters armed with automatic riffles.

[notfatcat]

September 2019

“Hell yes, we’re going to take your AR-15, your AK-47,” O’Rourke said

February 2022

“I’m not interested in taking anything from anyone,” O’Rourke said

[petej]

September 2019

“Hell yes, we’re going to take your AR-15, your AK-47,” O’Rourke said

February 2022

“I’m not interested in taking anything from anyone,” O’Rourke said

Rourke knows to win or get close he can't say what he did in 2019.

[notfatcat]

Yes, people will know that he's full of shit, although that's nothing unique for a politician. People who like their guns simply won't trust him, even if they agree that gun control needs tightening in their state.

[Kawazaki]

If I venture onto Twitter and read a thread that has those American 2nd amendment types (you know the type), what never fails to happen is that they will ask how can they be expected to give up their guns when obviously the criminals won't give up theirs?

And pretty much any development of the conversation ends right there. Done.

You can ask them if they are a criminal to which they will reply no.
You can ask them would they shoot somebody to which they will reply no.
So then you point out to them what difference will them having a gun make and they'll envisage all kinds of scenarios where they will get to use their gun before the criminal uses theirs.
You point out that a criminal is less likely to shoot you if you're not pointing a gun at them and so on and so forth...

[Uncle fester]

This is really all that needs to be said.

I was watching Beto O'Rouke get shouted down and dragged out of the hall for "politicising the situation".

If you can't speak about the damage that profligate gun ownership does now, when can you speak about it?

There was a Texan Republican governor on R4 this morning toeing the “blame the shooter not the gun” line.

It was a bit frustrating that the interviewer didn’t ask the follow up, “Are you saying Americans are inherently more murderously violent than citizens of other countries?”

A horrible stat that came out of that article is that if a child or teenager dies in the US, the cause is most likely to be gun violence.

It's a question worth asking. In Bowling For Columbine, Moore looked at Canada which has broadly similar gun laws and hunting culture but nowhere near the same number of gun deaths.

You could ask the same question re Switzerland. Loads of guns. They haven't had a mass shooting in decades.

Moore's conclusion was that wealth inequality and poverty was a key driver.

[robmatic]

If I venture onto Twitter and read a thread that has those American 2nd amendment types (you know the type), what never fails to happen is that they will ask how can they be expected to give up their guns when obviously the criminals won't give up theirs?

And pretty much any development of the conversation ends right there. Done.

You can ask them if they are a criminal to which they will reply no.
You can ask them would they shoot somebody to which they will reply no.
So then you point out to them what difference will them having a gun make and they'll envisage all kinds of scenarios where they will get to use their gun before the criminal uses theirs.
You point out that a criminal is less likely to shoot you if you're not pointing a gun at them and so on and so forth...

To be honest, I can't think of too many situations where possessing a gun would prevent me being a victim of crime. Are carjackings a big thing in the US? Armed home invasions during daylight hours?

[sockwithaticket]

I was watching Beto O'Rouke get shouted down and dragged out of the hall for "politicising the situation".

If you can't speak about the damage that profligate gun ownership does now, when can you speak about it?

There was a Texan Republican governor on R4 this morning toeing the “blame the shooter not the gun” line.

It was a bit frustrating that the interviewer didn’t ask the follow up, “Are you saying Americans are inherently more murderously violent than citizens of other countries?”

A horrible stat that came out of that article is that if a child or teenager dies in the US, the cause is most likely to be gun violence.

It's a question worth asking. In Bowling For Columbine, Moore looked at Canada which has broadly similar gun laws and hunting culture but nowhere near the same number of gun deaths.

You could ask the same question re Switzerland. Loads of guns. They haven't had a mass shooting in decades.

Moore's conclusion was that wealth inequality and poverty was a key driver.

Which is over-simplifying it. It contributes to explaining some gun violence, but laws and cultural attitudes are still hugely important contributory factors. Switzerland couldn't be more different to the US in either respect. Canada also diverges in notable ways, their gun culture is more or less strictly hunting whereas in the US, from the revoltion through to the push west, civil war and beyond they've been tied to preserving freedom.

[Hugo]

The gun culture in the US is a function of the demand by slave owning states to be able to raise armed militia in order to suppress slave revolts.

In essence Rittenhouse was doing what the 2nd amendment was designed for - to allow white people to use arms to protect capital.

[Niegs]

Cruz being Cruz...




(One of the top comments shares some video from parents begging cops to go in and cops detaining one who wanted to. I get that there's probably procedure, maybe even flawed procedure, but not a good look when many US cops these days are tooled up to the gills in expensive military-grade gear.)

[weegie01]

When I joined the job a significant minority were ex-forces, lots of Falklands and NI vets. Many others were bizarrely ex-miners. The main requirement was being able to keep a police hat 5'10 off the ground. There were some real, big hard bastards, for a reason, we were a force to keep society safe.

There were no armed response vehicles but all ex-forces were authorised to draw handguns from a local private armoury.

It is totally changed days and the vast majority of cops now are young, university educated kids who have no concept or ability about how to deal with truly violent situations. Also handicapped by the fact that the few that can know they will get no backing at all to deal with the aftermath.

Oddly when the first armed response vehicle were muted, the majority of ex-forces refused to apply and the general consensus was that those that did volunteer were the wrong type.

My father was a generation before that. He had enlisted in the Navy towards the end of WWII and joined the police when demobbed.

He was over 6 foot and the product of West Coast crofting. They were hard men, not men you messed with, and whatever else, I do respect that he had a clear sense of duty, and that was to protect the public.

I have mentioned before that my son was working doors in Edinburgh. He has now set up a security firm with a pal and are doing some decent contracts. They have a couple of ex-army guys working for them and it strikes me that these guys would have been the type to go into the police in my father's day. Not academically talented, but decent guys who are not afraid to put themselves at physical risk to do their job while playing (mostly) by the rules.

[Blackmac]

When I joined the job a significant minority were ex-forces, lots of Falklands and NI vets. Many others were bizarrely ex-miners. The main requirement was being able to keep a police hat 5'10 off the ground. There were some real, big hard bastards, for a reason, we were a force to keep society safe.

There were no armed response vehicles but all ex-forces were authorised to draw handguns from a local private armoury.

It is totally changed days and the vast majority of cops now are young, university educated kids who have no concept or ability about how to deal with truly violent situations. Also handicapped by the fact that the few that can know they will get no backing at all to deal with the aftermath.

Oddly when the first armed response vehicle were muted, the majority of ex-forces refused to apply and the general consensus was that those that did volunteer were the wrong type.

My father was a generation before that. He had enlisted in the Navy towards the end of WWII and joined the police when demobbed.

He was over 6 foot and the product of West Coast crofting. They were hard men, not men you messed with, and whatever else, I do respect that he had a clear sense of duty, and that was to protect the public.

I have mentioned before that my son was working doors in Edinburgh. He has now set up a security firm with a pal and are doing some decent contracts. They have a couple of ex-army guys working for them and it strikes me that these guys would have been the type to go into the police in my father's day. Not academically talented, but decent guys who are not afraid to put themselves at physical risk to do their job while playing (mostly) by the rules.

Totally agree. There is far too much emphasis on education in the recruiting process, when it is blatantly obvious that many do not have either the physical or mental attributes required to be good officers. Most ex forces are incredibly adaptable and would be more than capable of doing almost any job available in the police, however many of these kids are never going to attain the mental and physical attributes that are required to be effective police officers.

Your comment about "mostly" by the rules is quite telling. It's a dirty bloody job and whilst I accept there are lines that cannot be crossed, it's always been very difficult to do it without blurring a few.

[geordie_6]

A horrible stat that came out of that article is that if a child or teenager dies in the US, the cause is most likely to be gun violence.

Yes. See above ^^^^

More teenagers now die in the US from guns than from road accidents

And what we should not forget is that behind these statistics, fo one such shooting, they are numerous murders committed with small fire arms. It is not just a problem of mad shooters armed with automatic riffles.

The frequency of which they are used in mass shooting incidents/school shootings is significant though.

[Masterji]

All these shootings become world wide news but if this happened any where else in the World it be worth about a minutes news.
BTW
Before anyone says anything, my heart bleeds for the parents and families of the victims.

[Uncle fester]

[Uncle fester]

Profile of the victims.
Tough read.
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/us/202 ... e-victims/

[Uncle fester]

Cruz being Cruz...




(One of the top comments shares some video from parents begging cops to go in and cops detaining one who wanted to. I get that there's probably procedure, maybe even flawed procedure, but not a good look when many US cops these days are tooled up to the gills in expensive military-grade gear.)

Fücking Snowflake couldn't hack being asked some pertinent questions.

[Gumboot]

For cunts like Cruz, it's all about the bucks.

[fishfoodie]

Four more lives destroyed

Mrs Garcia was married and had four children - two boys and two girls ranging from 12 to 23 years old.

[Hugo]

All these shootings become world wide news but if this happened any where else in the World it be worth about a minutes news.
BTW
Before anyone says anything, my heart bleeds for the parents and families of the victims.

Its because these shootings are at odds with the United States government portrayal of the country as the "leader of the free world". Other countries might be equally as violent but they don't have the same pretensions of world leadership that the US does.

[Jock42]

When I joined the job a significant minority were ex-forces, lots of Falklands and NI vets. Many others were bizarrely ex-miners. The main requirement was being able to keep a police hat 5'10 off the ground. There were some real, big hard bastards, for a reason, we were a force to keep society safe.

There were no armed response vehicles but all ex-forces were authorised to draw handguns from a local private armoury.

It is totally changed days and the vast majority of cops now are young, university educated kids who have no concept or ability about how to deal with truly violent situations. Also handicapped by the fact that the few that can know they will get no backing at all to deal with the aftermath.

Oddly when the first armed response vehicle were muted, the majority of ex-forces refused to apply and the general consensus was that those that did volunteer were the wrong type.

My father was a generation before that. He had enlisted in the Navy towards the end of WWII and joined the police when demobbed.

He was over 6 foot and the product of West Coast crofting. They were hard men, not men you messed with, and whatever else, I do respect that he had a clear sense of duty, and that was to protect the public.

I have mentioned before that my son was working doors in Edinburgh. He has now set up a security firm with a pal and are doing some decent contracts. They have a couple of ex-army guys working for them and it strikes me that these guys would have been the type to go into the police in my father's day. Not academically talented, but decent guys who are not afraid to put themselves at physical risk to do their job while playing (mostly) by the rules.

Totally agree. There is far too much emphasis on education in the recruiting process, when it is blatantly obvious that many do not have either the physical or mental attributes required to be good officers. Most ex forces are incredibly adaptable and would be more than capable of doing almost any job available in the police, however many of these kids are never going to attain the mental and physical attributes that are required to be effective police officers.

Your comment about "mostly" by the rules is quite telling. It's a dirty bloody job and whilst I accept there are lines that cannot be crossed, it's always been very difficult to do it without blurring a few.

My old man was a prison officer and they were actively recruiting ex-forces guys at that time. Most of his social circle as I was growing up were ex-forces. Exactly the type of guys you want in a Cat A jail imo. Like the police the prison has gone the same way.

I briefly toyed with the idea of the police. Very glad I didn't ho down that road, the next time I end up helping a cop whilst their oppo looks on won't be the first.

[Rinkals]

Yes, people will know that he's full of shit, although that's nothing unique for a politician. People who like their guns simply won't trust him, even if they agree that gun control needs tightening in their state.

What I know about O'Rouke is that he's somebody that puts himself about to serve his community.

But if you tell me he's a cunt, then fine, but I would like to see a little evidence.

[notfatcat]

I said he was full of shit and provided direct quotes showing that he's full of shit. He deliberately changed his position because he's running in Texas so apparently doesn't have the courage of his convictions.

[fishfoodie]

I said he was full of shit and provided direct quotes showing that he's full of shit. He deliberately changed his position because he's running in Texas so apparently doesn't have the courage of his convictions.

Quotes without context though !

[notfatcat]

The context is that when he was running for president he stated hell yeah we're gonna take (some of) your weapons, and when he was running for office in a pro-gun state he said nah we don't want to take anything. What's changed his mind do you think? My belief, and the obvious one I think, is that he knows he can't takje the same message to people in Texas who he wants to vote him into office. Typical politician - full of shit.

[Fonz]

For cunts like Cruz, it's all about the bucks.

It really isn't (and it must be noted how little 442k over the course of a political career is, especially for a Senator and presidential candidate who made it pretty far).

Blaming the gun lobby is a cop out, really. It's endemic to the culture, views like his are completely mainstream and commonplace. Groups like the NRA are a reflection of that, not the cause.

The issue is much, much deeper than some political backscratching.

[Line6 HXFX]

Yeah they can all sit around and get to the real cause ".ohhh it's a mental health issue..oh computer games...oh its the the America settler mentality, in a stolen land, we are on the frontier here folks" . Its all incredibly interesting insn't it, let's talk about it for another 25 years..

I had a perfectly reasonable conversation with a Kindly old gentleman on YouTube who runs a gun channel and asked him why not, you know not post anything this week, out of a mark of respect to the beautiful lovely children that perished... Stating I realise he may not ever come back if he were to do that for every mass shooting in the US, that seem to happen every three days, but this one is really touching nerve etc.

This Kindly old gentleman completely lost his perfectly cultivated kindly old gentleman routine, in a second and launched into just wild ad honomin attacks. It was like tucker carlson on crack..

They don't care, they love their guns far more than anything else on this rock.. and refuse to compromise anything.

This is why they should just make them illegal and remove their choice.

[Gumboot]

For cunts like Cruz, it's all about the bucks.

It really isn't (and it must be noted how little 442k over the course of a political career is, especially for a Senator and presidential candidate who made it pretty far).

Blaming the gun lobby is a cop out, really. It's endemic to the culture, views like his are completely mainstream and commonplace. Groups like the NRA are a reflection of that, not the cause.

The issue is much, much deeper than some political backscratching.

Well yeah, but the only realistic chance of any positive change is enacting stricter gun control legislation, and the gun lobby will do whatever it takes to ensure that doesn't happen (bang bang ka-ching!), hence all those GOP politicians stymying any attempt at real change. From the outside looking in, it seems to me that America's obscene gun fetish and reverence for the anachronistic 2nd amendment has led to an almost resigned acceptance that these sorts of mass shootings are now 'inevitable'. Because the "right" to bear weapons of war in a peaceful society trumps the right of that society's children to live without fear of imminent death... at school of all places. Talk about fubar...

[Rinkals]

The context is that when he was running for president he stated hell yeah we're gonna take (some of) your weapons, and when he was running for office in a pro-gun state he said nah we don't want to take anything. What's changed his mind do you think? My belief, and the obvious one I think, is that he knows he can't takje the same message to people in Texas who he wants to vote him into office. Typical politician - full of shit.

O'Rouke's position on guns is well known, and he probably won't win the race to become Governor because of it.

What you are saying makes absolutely no sense.

O'Rourke is probably one of the few politicians trying to do the right thing, but because he's not a Republican, he's a "piece of shit"?

[sockwithaticket]

Been reading some more details on the incident. The initial spin was that a team of Border Patrol came in and sorted things out, seems that it was actually an off duty Border Patrol spec ops guy who borrowed his barber's shotgun and drove 40 miles to take the shooter out because his daughter was at the school.

Uvalde PD apparently account for 40% of the town's budget. That's a staggering amount for them to sit around with thumbs up arses while kids are being killed.

Serious tip of the hat to one mother who was initially handcuffed by the police for trying to access the school, managed to persuade them to remove the cuffs and then ran straight in and got her kids out.

I understand not allowing the parents to all do that and perhaps make the situation worse, but when the cops are sat outside maintaining a cordon for nearly an hour and not ostensibly doing anything else you can appreciate why parents wanted to take things into their own hands.

[Gumboot]

Those cops are the good guys with guns?

[Raggs]

Those cops are the good guys with guns?

Good guys with guns can sit and wait until.... well, until someone else does their job for them, or the shooter blows their own brains out.

[notfatcat]

The context is that when he was running for president he stated hell yeah we're gonna take (some of) your weapons, and when he was running for office in a pro-gun state he said nah we don't want to take anything. What's changed his mind do you think? My belief, and the obvious one I think, is that he knows he can't takje the same message to people in Texas who he wants to vote him into office. Typical politician - full of shit.

O'Rouke's position on guns is well known, and he probably won't win the race to become Governor because of it.

What you are saying makes absolutely no sense.

O'Rourke is probably one of the few politicians trying to do the right thing, but because he's not a Republican, he's a "piece of shit"?

Please stop misquoting me.

[Wilson's Toffee]

For cunts like Cruz, it's all about the bucks.

It really isn't (and it must be noted how little 442k over the course of a political career is, especially for a Senator and presidential candidate who made it pretty far).

Blaming the gun lobby is a cop out, really. It's endemic to the culture, views like his are completely mainstream and commonplace. Groups like the NRA are a reflection of that, not the cause.

The issue is much, much deeper than some political backscratching.

Well yeah, but the only realistic chance of any positive change is enacting stricter gun control legislation, and the gun lobby will do whatever it takes to ensure that doesn't happen (bang bang ka-ching!), hence all those GOP politicians stymying any attempt at real change. From the outside looking in, it seems to me that America's obscene gun fetish and reverence for the anachronistic 2nd amendment has led to an almost resigned acceptance that these sorts of mass shootings are now 'inevitable'. Because the "right" to bear weapons of war in a peaceful society trumps the right of that society's children to live without fear of imminent death... at school of all places. Talk about fubar...

I tend to agree with Fonz. South Africa has much more stringent firearm control legislation than the USA, yet we are far more prone to experience "gun violence". Illegal firearms are here, in prolific numbers, and no amount of legislation will inhibit their number or use . Plus, our police and Defense Force (the biggest contributors to illegal firearms) are in no way willing, politically, to let legal firearms be and focus on illegal arms.

Seems to be a culture thing, where "might makes right", regardless of common sense . Violent societies ..

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I think you can reasonably cite no amount of legislation will remove all firearms and/or acts of violence. But the idea legislation and attendant actions cannot remove any of the firearms and associated violence seems nonsensical.

Also we don't need the first action to remove all the guns, it's a process, and given the numbers involved likely a really long and hard one. Just you don't start a journey of a thousand miles by refusing to take the first step

[Gumboot]

I think you can reasonably cite no amount of legislation will remove all firearms and/or acts of violence. But the idea legislation and attendant actions cannot remove any of the firearms and associated violence seems nonsensical.

Also we don't need the first action to remove all the guns, it's a process, and given the numbers involved likely a really long and hard one. Just you don't start a journey of a thousand miles by refusing to take the first step

They owe it to their defenseless kids to at least start trying.

[sockwithaticket]

I think you can reasonably cite no amount of legislation will remove all firearms and/or acts of violence. But the idea legislation and attendant actions cannot remove any of the firearms and associated violence seems nonsensical.

Also we don't need the first action to remove all the guns, it's a process, and given the numbers involved likely a really long and hard one. Just you don't start a journey of a thousand miles by refusing to take the first step

The first step for them needs to be nationwide standardisation of law. I mentioned elsewhere that Chicago, despite being in a state with fairly tight laws, has massive issues with gun violence due to the ease with which they're acquired from neighbouring states.

Then maybe they can move onto something like magazine capacity reduction, cost of ammo and amount of ammo any one person can have in their possession at any time. Ammo is probably the easier target than guns for the moment.

[Line6 HXFX]

It really isn't (and it must be noted how little 442k over the course of a political career is, especially for a Senator and presidential candidate who made it pretty far).

Blaming the gun lobby is a cop out, really. It's endemic to the culture, views like his are completely mainstream and commonplace. Groups like the NRA are a reflection of that, not the cause.

The issue is much, much deeper than some political backscratching.

Well yeah, but the only realistic chance of any positive change is enacting stricter gun control legislation, and the gun lobby will do whatever it takes to ensure that doesn't happen (bang bang ka-ching!), hence all those GOP politicians stymying any attempt at real change. From the outside looking in, it seems to me that America's obscene gun fetish and reverence for the anachronistic 2nd amendment has led to an almost resigned acceptance that these sorts of mass shootings are now 'inevitable'. Because the "right" to bear weapons of war in a peaceful society trumps the right of that society's children to live without fear of imminent death... at school of all places. Talk about fubar...

I tend to agree with Fonz. South Africa has much more stringent firearm control legislation than the USA, yet we are far more prone to experience "gun violence". Illegal firearms are here, in prolific numbers, and no amount of legislation will inhibit their number or use . Plus, our police and Defense Force (the biggest contributors to illegal firearms) are in no way willing, politically, to let legal firearms be and focus on illegal arms.

Seems to be a culture thing, where "might makes right", regardless of common sense . Violent societies ..

So we should give up as no amount if legislation and law will inhibit their use?
So what else do we say that about?

Do we say that about drugs,
Robbery?
Speeding?
Murder*
We can't do anything, as there will always be illegal firearms..

Lets give up on the lawbook, as there are and will always be law breakers?

F'king bizarre reasoning.

Giving up, even before we contracted the policing of it out to the private sector, for them to make a packet.
What's becoming of this planet.