Champions league (soccer) Liverpool v Real Madrid

[Blackmac]

Banging on about thousands of scousers storming the turnstiles on the day was a touch hysterical too tbf.

Agreed, however there was an element of mischief involved in that. The majority of my posts have been much more measured.
Sefton as usual responds in the only manner he knows. As for his own hugely bigoted suggestion that I am somehow racist maybe he shouldn't throw stones in glass houses as the education system has hardly come off unscathed in that respect.

Fair enough.

Honestly, defending English football fans abroad isn't a hill I'd choose to die on usually. But all the footage and first hand reports from journalists I've seen isn't doing a lot to convince me that on balance the French authorities didn't have a bit of a shocker here.

I have essentially agreed with that, whilst trying to offer some perspective about why I feel that occurred. It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to see that the French authorities have altered their SOP's to respond to a specific threat to the safe running of the event. I could well imagine the 40000 fake ticket figure could have been just that, although it does appear to be an incredible figure. Most of the additional security measures look like an attempt to combat that threat and prevent those fans getting near the stadium. Any large event like this can always be one small incident from disaster and 2500+ fans trying to get in with fake tickets would be more than enough to cause that.

Possibly a good example to demonstrate that "post hoc" isn't always a fallacy. .

[Margin__Walker]

It will be interesting to see if even the 2500 fake ticket figure ends up being correct, given there were several reports of people with tickets provided by players etc be turned away as their tickets were deemed to be counterfeit.

Would also be interesting to see how it the number compares to previous showpiece events of a similar scale.

[Blackmac]

It will be interesting to see if even the 2500 fake ticket figure ends up being correct, given there were several reports of people with tickets provided by players etc be turned away as their tickets were deemed to be counterfeit.

Would also be interesting to see how it the number compares to previous showpiece events of a similar scale.

Certainly interesting to see why such a normally well run venue went completely pear shaped. Fake tickets is not something we ever came across up here during my time but we are are only talking about the rugby and 25k capacity football matches which probably don't attract much commitment from the forgers.

I think the truth will be somewhere in between both extremes that we are hearing now.

[sefton]

Hold your horses there tonto. Any pre conceived ideas about Liverpool fans behaviour are bloody well founded and their reputation well deserved. Only the Liverpool propaganda machine is absolving them of all responsibility and all we are hearing from the authorities is some element of regret about how the French responded to events, which is clearly badly and heavy handed, but then it's the French (oh look more bigotry)
Over 2800 fake tickets recovered at the turnstiles is about 10 to 15 % of tickets issued to each side, if you imagine the pandemonium each "fan" makes at the turnstile when he is turned away, its clear that that would cause significant problems and have a huge influence on how the problems unfolded. Getting 80000 fans safely into a stadium is a very high stress situation in the first place and it doesn't take much for that to go pear shaped. 2800 fans with a fake ticket is a significant amount of twats with a total disregard for their fellow supporter and cannot be ignored.

Well if that was the standard of evidence on the police for a ranking officer then no wonder it is full of institutional racism and corruption.

You never really come up with much of a worthwhile response other than insults do you. Maybe try playing the ball and not the man for once.
Also a pretty hysterical response for someone accusing others of bigotry but then that seems to be your standard response.

I see the nuance of using the same standards of evidence as you appear to see fit to use to make unsubstantiated generalised allegations was too subtle for you.

[Blackmac]

Well if that was the standard of evidence on the police for a ranking officer then no wonder it is full of institutional racism and corruption.

You never really come up with much of a worthwhile response other than insults do you. Maybe try playing the ball and not the man for once.
Also a pretty hysterical response for someone accusing others of bigotry but then that seems to be your standard response.

I see the nuance of using the same standards of evidence as you appear to see fit to use to make unsubstantiated generalised allegations was too subtle for you.

Fuck off, it wasn't even close to being clever enough to suggest that. It was just your usual piss poor and frankly boring response to me whenever you feel the need to disagree. On second reading it is also just piss poor English.

[sefton]

I’ve never particularly disagreed with you, in fact I’ve always found our interactions to be quite convivial but much like your reaction on the evening of the game your reaction is hysterical.

[charltom]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... nal-chaos/

Headline: Uefa apologise to Liverpool and Real Madrid fans over Champions League final chaos

A worthwhile read for some of the tossers on here who have seemed to want to blame Liverpool fans no matter the evidence.

[Blackmac]

I’ve never particularly disagreed with you, in fact I’ve always found our interactions to be quite convivial but much like your reaction on the evening of the game your reaction is hysterical.

I would say hysterical is a bit extreme as I've already pointed out the two posts were very much tongue in cheek and I think obviously so. All others were pretty measured. Getting racist and corrupt barbs pointed your way will unfortunately get under most peoples skin so yeah I bit a bit hard on that and apologies if I came back a bit hard.

[sefton]

A French inquiry into the security fiasco at the Uefa Champions League final in May has found it was caused by a litany of administrative errors and failings rather than Liverpool fans.
The French government initially blamed supporters and fake tickets for the crowd chaos that led to fans being tear-gassed and robbed in Paris.
But a Senate report has found authorities blamed them unfairly.
Dysfunctional mistakes were made at every level, it said.
In their report, entitled Champions League Final: An Unavoidable Fiasco, two Senate committees investigated what went wrong on the night of the Champions League final between Liverpool and Real Madrid in Paris on 28 May, taking evidence from Liverpool fan and club representatives as well as French officials.
Liverpool fans have told the BBC that the problems were caused by digital tickets not working properly on the night, leading to problems at the turnstiles at the Stade de France. A rail strike made things worse, leading to bottlenecks as supporters arrived for the match.
As well as being tear-gassed outside the ground, fans were robbed and assaulted by local troublemakers. It then emerged that CCTV footage had been wiped a week later because no request had been made to save it.
Laurent Lafon, one of the inquiry's two chairmen, spoke of a dysfunctional chain of events and failings in preparation: "Everyone went their own way without there being any real co-ordination."
Paris police, Uefa and the French government are all taken to task by the inquiry: Uefa for failing to plan for potential ticketing fraud and the government for shifting the blame on to supporters.
Co-chairman Jean-Noël Buffet identified the police's decision to use its anti-terror policy of pre-screening fans outside a rail station as part of the problem: "It just required 10,000 to 15,000 people to make this pre-filtering system untenable."
When the Paris prefect decided to abandon the screening because of the risk of a crush, the inquiry said the move had "created a space in front of the stadium for hooligans, who were then able to surge into it and attack supporters".

Media caption,
Watch: Fans shared videos showing pepper spray being deployed and children crying in Paris
In evidence to the Senate committee last month, Interior Minister Gérald Darmanin admitted things could have been better organised and apologised for the "disproportionate" use of tear gas. But he maintained Liverpool fans were largely to blame.
He had earlier complained that 30,000-40,000 Liverpool fans had arrived at the stadium either with no tickets at all or with forgeries. Uefa made clear there had actually been 2,700 fake tickets on the night.
The inquiry report reserved strong condemnation for Mr Darmanin himself: "It is unfair to have sought to blame supporters of the Liverpool team for the disturbances, as the interior minister has done, to deflect attention from the state's inability to properly manage the crowd and suppress the action of several hundred violent and organised delinquents."
It also found that the use of tear gas on fans had been "particularly aggressive". Liverpool fans told the inquiry that security methods used by Paris authorities were reminiscent of those deployed against hooligans in the 1980s.
The inquiry accepted that local authorities had little time to prepare for the May final, after it was moved from St Petersburg in mid-March because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. But it criticised Uefa for failing to legislate for fake paper tickets.
The shocking scenes outside the stadium came as an embarrassment to the government ahead of June parliamentary elections and as France plans for the 2023 Rugby World Cup and 2024 Paris Olympics.

[Margin__Walker]

So you're telling us that Torq's hot takes on the incident may have been wide of the mark?

[sefton]

So you're telling us that Torq's hot takes on the incident may have been wide of the mark?

I’m sure he’ll be on soon to retract and offer his apologies.

[C69]

So you're telling us that Torq's hot takes on the incident may have been wide of the mark?

I’m sure he’ll be on soon to retract and offer his apologies.

The French are an honourable lot, I am sure he will apologise

[petej]

Seems to be an issue with just about any showcase football match atm, from pitch invasions to this.

Not feeling massively sympathetic. Don't buy dodgy tickets and don't turn up at the stadium without a ticket. Yes the French police might not have been great but there is a bit of not being a bellend and taking ownership that seems to have been lost. I hope Liverpool as a club have messaged heavily on only going if you have ticket and only buy tickets from official sources. There has been lots of events at that stadium with bugger all issue's until this.

I apologise for my comment above it was wrong. The French authorities and uefa have been shite. From listening to other fans speak about big uefa events it appears they don't give a shit about fans and are crap about working with the local authorities.

[C69]

Seems to be an issue with just about any showcase football match atm, from pitch invasions to this.

Not feeling massively sympathetic. Don't buy dodgy tickets and don't turn up at the stadium without a ticket. Yes the French police might not have been great but there is a bit of not being a bellend and taking ownership that seems to have been lost. I hope Liverpool as a club have messaged heavily on only going if you have ticket and only buy tickets from official sources. There has been lots of events at that stadium with bugger all issue's until this.

I apologise for my comment above it was wrong. The French authorities and uefa have been shite. From listening to other fans speak about big uefa events it appears they don't give a shit about fans and are crap about working with the local authorities.

The narrative is of course influenced by and related to the RWC.

[Tichtheid]

Seems to be an issue with just about any showcase football match atm, from pitch invasions to this.

Not feeling massively sympathetic. Don't buy dodgy tickets and don't turn up at the stadium without a ticket. Yes the French police might not have been great but there is a bit of not being a bellend and taking ownership that seems to have been lost. I hope Liverpool as a club have messaged heavily on only going if you have ticket and only buy tickets from official sources. There has been lots of events at that stadium with bugger all issue's until this.

I apologise for my comment above it was wrong. The French authorities and uefa have been shite. From listening to other fans speak about big uefa events it appears they don't give a shit about fans and are crap about working with the local authorities.

Credit where it's due, well played.


Tickets are a pain in the arse for any event now, unless you're turning up with a torn half page of foolscap with "Admit one adult" written in crayon, it's difficult to spot fakes. If you try to buy tickets from the official outlets you are often frustrated only minutes after the booking goes online, but somehow thousands of them appear on big, and official, re-sale sites within hours at hugely inflated prices.

[sefton]

So you're telling us that Torq's hot takes on the incident may have been wide of the mark?

I’m sure he’ll be on soon to retract and offer his apologies.

The French are an honourable lot, I am sure he will apologise

Looks like he thinks it is below him to admit he was wrong.

[sefton]

I wonder if some of the loud mouths who were happy to weigh in might like to take the opportunity to revisit their diatribes.

Uefa bears "primary responsibility" for the chaotic scenes that "almost led to disaster" before last year's Champions League final between Liverpool and Real Madrid, says an independent report.

Fans were penned in and teargassed outside Paris's Stade de France as kick-off was delayed by 36 minutes.

Uefa and French authorities initially blamed "industrial-scale" ticket fraud - which drew widespread criticism.

The report says there is "no evidence" to support the "reprehensible" claims.

"The panel has concluded that Uefa, as event owner, bears primary responsibility for failures which almost led to disaster," states the report, which was commissioned by Uefa after the 28 May final.

While it said there was "contributory fault" from other bodies, the findings said European governing body Uefa was "at the wheel".

"Uefa should have retained a monitoring and oversight role [of security], to ensure it all worked. It self-evidently did not," the report added.

Uefa commissioned the independent report three days after the match - the showpiece of European club football which Liverpool went on to lose 1-0 - took place in the French capital.

The European governing body said a "comprehensive review" would examine a number of factors that include the decision-making, responsibility and behaviour of all parties involved in the final.

The investigation was chaired by Dr Tiago Brandao Rodrigues, a Portuguese politician, with the panel also including experts and consultants from legal, policing and event-management fields, along with representatives from football fan groups.

"On behalf of Uefa, I would like to apologise most sincerely once again to all those who were affected by the events that unfolded on what should have been a celebration at the pinnacle of the club season," Uefa general secretary Theodore Theodoridis said.

"In particular, I would like to apologise to the supporters of Liverpool for the experiences many of them had when attending the game and for the messages released prior to and during the game which had the effect of unjustly blaming them for the situation leading to the delayed kick-off."

[Grandpa]

And still UEFA tried to sneakily leak it just before the Merseyside derby...

Liverpool should be given qualification to the Champions League indefinitely, no matter their league position...

[Grandpa]

I still think Liverpool fans were responsible. I could see it in their eyes

That would be the tear gas in their eyes.

[Grandpa]

I should note Sefton my new found ire for Liverpool comes from my son supporting them at the expense of normal man's sports. It absolutely sickens my balls and I hope something bad happens to you like your tea goes cold

Your son? Who do you support? And how did he end up supporting Liverpool? Surely you made sure no Liverpool games were ever broadcast in your house,,?