England in Australia

[sockwithaticket]

Dingwall at 12?

Or is he usually a 13?

I haven't seen as ton of Saints this season, but I think he's been playing 12 a fair bit. 13 is probably the position he's played most, but he can certainly don the other shirt and play well.

[dpedin]

Yet again Marcus Smith fails to live up the hype. Farrell should play 10.

Problem has been having Smith and Farrell on the pitch at the same time. I would let Smith play 10 and give him a proper 12 outside. Too many cooks ...

England defence has been awful coupled with complete lack of imagination in their back play. Going back to the Vunipolas is a big mistake, they are both pretty one dimensional now, they might be the big bully boys in the league but they're not good enough now at international level.

We don't have a proper 12. I think we should either play Smith with a 12 who's actually a 12, or play Ford and Farrell. I think the latter is preferable.

England just looked clueless. At least Ludlum brought a bit of dog and Arundell a slice of magic.

Care and Smith work well together with Quins with the big Saffa at 12 they let him carry into trouble and will attack of 2nd or 3rd phase ball quickly before defences are set. WIth England ball is slow and Farrell doesn't want to carry into trouble so they end up drifting laterally, Smith ends up with slow ball and behind the gain line usually with a defender on him. Surely there is an English 12 who can carry hard? I would also have Donbrant at 8 far more dynamic and more to his game than Vunipola. Also works well with Care and Smith. Its like Jones is desperate to feck up everyones game and make the game as slow as possible?

[Torquemada 1420]

Marler changed his tune

[Kawazaki]

Some people legitimately think Farrell should be 10

Why not? It's his best position.

The win rate with him at 10 and Ford at 10 is starkly different, it's statistical confirmation of what's seemed apparent when watching him down the years - can't get us firing. Now, some of that is England generally being crap all too often, but I don't think sticking him at 10 solves any of the problems we have, so why do it?

Even when he's been doing the business there for Sarries, he hasn't for England when given the opportunity.

He hasn't been given the opportunity to do it for England. You're comparing Farrell playing flyhalf for England before 2016 - a lot has changed in 6 years.

It's all academic as England don't have a good enough 12 to replace him with anyway. And I rate Smith, it is possible to think Smith is a good player whilst also thinking Farrell is a good player. Two things can be true at the same time.

[Oxbow]

Dingwall at 12?

Or is he usually a 13?

I haven't seen as ton of Saints this season, but I think he's been playing 12 a fair bit. 13 is probably the position he's played most, but he can certainly don the other shirt and play well.

Dingwall has been playing mostly at 13 in the latter part of the season with Hutchinson at 12, though they do switch it around a bit.

[Torquemada 1420]

I would also have Donbrant at 8 far more dynamic and more to his game than Vunipola.

I thought Dombrandt was injured? Which is why Vunipola was given another shot? Latter had looked like some sort of resurgence this season in the GP but that was clearly misleading and he really is a busted flush at intl level after all.

[sockwithaticket]

Problem has been having Smith and Farrell on the pitch at the same time. I would let Smith play 10 and give him a proper 12 outside. Too many cooks ...

England defence has been awful coupled with complete lack of imagination in their back play. Going back to the Vunipolas is a big mistake, they are both pretty one dimensional now, they might be the big bully boys in the league but they're not good enough now at international level.

We don't have a proper 12. I think we should either play Smith with a 12 who's actually a 12, or play Ford and Farrell. I think the latter is preferable.

England just looked clueless. At least Ludlum brought a bit of dog and Arundell a slice of magic.

Care and Smith work well together with Quins with the big Saffa at 12 they let him carry into trouble and will attack of 2nd or 3rd phase ball quickly before defences are set. WIth England ball is slow and Farrell doesn't want to carry into trouble so they end up drifting laterally, Smith ends up with slow ball and behind the gain line usually with a defender on him. Surely there is an English 12 who can carry hard? I would also have Donbrant at 8 far more dynamic and more to his game than Vunipola. Also works well with Care and Smith. Its like Jones is desperate to feck up everyones game and make the game as slow as possible?

We don't have an Esterhuizen, but any and all of Mark Atkinson (unfortunately played really badly against the Barbarians), Dan Kelly, (young, injured), Alex Lozowski (one of Eddie's infamous early subs never seen again), Fraser Dingwall (around the squad a lot, apparently not trusted to play) or Porter (young, on the bench today) can bang it up better and more willingly than Farrell.

Much like 9, it's not that there aren't any alternatives, it's that they're rarely if ever given a chance.

[ASMO]

Got to be changes for next week

Lawes to second row and Hill can fuck off. Ludlum has to start as well as Willis. Billy survives by the skin of his teeth.
Van Portfliet for Care, Smith stays 10 (do we have another center on tour?). Keep Marchant, Steward, swap Joe for Arundell.

[Torquemada 1420]

He hasn't been given the opportunity to do it for England. You're comparing Farrell playing flyhalf for England before 2016 - a lot has changed in 6 years.

BS. He played FH for most of 2019 and pretty sure some of 2020 too.

{EDIT} In 31 games since Nov 18 (excluding today) he played FH 14 times.

[Kawazaki]

Care and Smith work well together with Quins with the big Saffa at 12 they let him carry into trouble and will attack of 2nd or 3rd phase ball quickly before defences are set. WIth England ball is slow and Farrell doesn't want to carry into trouble so they end up drifting laterally, Smith ends up with slow ball and behind the gain line usually with a defender on him. Surely there is an English 12 who can carry hard? I would also have Donbrant at 8 far more dynamic and more to his game than Vunipola. Also works well with Care and Smith. Its like Jones is desperate to feck up everyones game and make the game as slow as possible?

You have heard that Quins lost the league this year I presume?

[Kawazaki]

Got to be changes for next week

Lawes to second row and Hill can fuck off. Ludlum has to start as well as Willis. Billy survives by the skin of his teeth.
Van Portfliet for Care, Smith stays 10 (do we have another center on tour?). Keep Marchant, Steward, swap Joe for Arundell.

England just need more pace everywhere. Earl would be useful to have in the squad now instead of Underhill.

[petej]

Farrell clearly still thinks he’s captain in that huddle

He is Eddie Jones's prefect/mouth piece.

[sockwithaticket]

Why not? It's his best position.

The win rate with him at 10 and Ford at 10 is starkly different, it's statistical confirmation of what's seemed apparent when watching him down the years - can't get us firing. Now, some of that is England generally being crap all too often, but I don't think sticking him at 10 solves any of the problems we have, so why do it?

Even when he's been doing the business there for Sarries, he hasn't for England when given the opportunity.

He hasn't been given the opportunity to do it for England. You're comparing Farrell playing flyhalf for England before 2016 - a lot has changed in 6 years.

It's all academic as England don't have a good enough 12 to replace him with anyway. And I rate Smith, it is possible to think Smith is a good player whilst also thinking Farrell is a good player. Two things can be true at the same time.

He's played 10 for England on a number of occasions since 2016 and Jones ended up reverting to Ford.

All joshing on here aside, I do actually think Farrell is good and has improved over the years, I just don't think he's a better 10 option at international level than either Ford or Smith. He probably is our best 12, but that's in part due to no one else really getting a shot. In a paralell universe Lozowski is our incumbent with 40 caps by now.

[ASMO]

Got to be changes for next week

Lawes to second row and Hill can fuck off. Ludlum has to start as well as Willis. Billy survives by the skin of his teeth.
Van Portfliet for Care, Smith stays 10 (do we have another center on tour?). Keep Marchant, Steward, swap Joe for Arundell.

England just need more pace everywhere. Earl would be useful to have in the squad now instead of Underhill.

I agree, and Northmore too would be a really good option.

[PCPhil]

Got to be changes for next week

Lawes to second row and Hill can fuck off. Ludlum has to start as well as Willis. Billy survives by the skin of his teeth.
Van Portfliet for Care, Smith stays 10 (do we have another center on tour?). Keep Marchant, Steward, swap Joe for Arundell.

England just need more pace everywhere. Earl would be useful to have in the squad now instead of Underhill.

Agree. Pace is mind and legs key to unlock tight defences.

[JM2K6]

Eddie broke Dombrandt in training.

Look, I get these performances give everyone a chance to put the boot into their favourite targets, be it the boy with the hype, or Farrell, or whoever.

But the biggest problem England has is the fact that Eddie Jones refuses to coach them to play a modern structured game that gets the most out of the players we have. Both Smith and Farrell are hamstrung by this ridiculous approach. Farrell is asked to spend his time as a passing bot and has no opportunity to show he can run the ball and offload. Smith is asked to get the ball miles behind the gain line with a defence that has not been fixed and attacking players who are all having to do off the cuff stuff with no real partnerships and cohesion.

There's some seriously fucking good players out there. The starting 9, 10, 12, 13, 15 are a very good starting point for international rugby. But Eddie Jones has convinced himself this anti rugby deliberately shapeless shit is the way forward.

And all that happens is that we end up playing an anti-system that diminishes almost every player involved in it.

[PCPhil]

Got to be changes for next week

Lawes to second row and Hill can fuck off. Ludlum has to start as well as Willis. Billy survives by the skin of his teeth.
Van Portfliet for Care, Smith stays 10 (do we have another center on tour?). Keep Marchant, Steward, swap Joe for Arundell.

England just need more pace everywhere. Earl would be useful to have in the squad now instead of Underhill.

Agree. Pace in mind and legs key to unlock tight defences.

[ASMO]

I really like Greenwood but is he on crack? England dominated 60 mins and could not score how is that not a problem with the coaching? Just saw the Aundell try again, the pace of the ball being taken so far behind the gainline, he scored it despite the shite service.

[JM2K6]

I really like Greenwood but is he on crack? England dominated 60 mins and could not score how is that not a problem with the coaching? Just saw the Aundell try again, the pace of the ball being taken so far behind the gainline, he scored it despite the shite service.

Agreed on Greenwood but you're on crack if you think that service was shite - from the Lawes jumped for that ball everyone did their job brilliantly

[Torquemada 1420]

Both Smith and Farrell are hamstrung by this ridiculous approach. Farrell is asked to spend his time as a passing bot and has no opportunity to show he can run the ball and offload. Smith is asked to get the ball miles behind the gain line with a defence that has not been fixed and attacking players who are all having to do off the cuff stuff with no real partnerships and cohesion.

Except Farrell has never offered much threat with ball in hand and his distribution is sh*t. His strengths are his defence (when he actually tackles legally) and (was?) his dead ball kicking.

I'm also wondering whether Ford really is the better option for Eng because he clearly has a better tactical kicking game than Smith and Jones is welded to a game plan based on power and territory.

[Torquemada 1420]

I really like Greenwood but is he on crack? England dominated 60 mins and could not score how is that not a problem with the coaching? Just saw the Aundell try again, the pace of the ball being taken so far behind the gainline, he scored it despite the shite service.

I don't think Aus will let him walk through 4 tacklers again any more than Ire will wave Ardea to the tryline again.

[JM2K6]

Both Smith and Farrell are hamstrung by this ridiculous approach. Farrell is asked to spend his time as a passing bot and has no opportunity to show he can run the ball and offload. Smith is asked to get the ball miles behind the gain line with a defence that has not been fixed and attacking players who are all having to do off the cuff stuff with no real partnerships and cohesion.

Except Farrell has never offered much threat with ball in hand and his distribution is sh*t. His strengths are his defence (when he actually tackles legally) and (was?) his dead ball kicking.

I'm also wondering whether Ford really is the better option for Eng because he clearly has a better tactical kicking game than Smith and Jones is welded to a game plan based on power and territory.

His distribution isn't shit and it wasn't shit today either.

And he does have a running game. Whether it can work at international level is another question entirely, but no one can have watched him this season and not been impressed by his work with ball in hand, allied to a new offloading game.

It's like saying Smith can't run either. Both made fuck all metres.

[petej]

Eddie broke Dombrandt in training.

Look, I get these performances give everyone a chance to put the boot into their favourite targets, be it the boy with the hype, or Farrell, or whoever.

But the biggest problem England has is the fact that Eddie Jones refuses to coach them to play a modern structured game that gets the most out of the players we have. Both Smith and Farrell are hamstrung by this ridiculous approach. Farrell is asked to spend his time as a passing bot and has no opportunity to show he can run the ball and offload. Smith is asked to get the ball miles behind the gain line with a defence that has not been fixed and attacking players who are all having to do off the cuff stuff with no real partnerships and cohesion.

There's some seriously fucking good players out there. The starting 9, 10, 12, 13, 15 are a very good starting point for international rugby. But Eddie Jones has convinced himself this anti rugby deliberately shapeless shit is the way forward.

And all that happens is that we end up playing an anti-system that diminishes almost every player involved in it.

Farrell is 30yr old and captain if it isn't working he should call it out. If he isn't aware it isn't working he shouldn't be captain. We know coaches love Farrell and large part of that I suspect is he follows instructions exceptionally well but this a problem if the instructions are shit.

[PCPhil]

I really like Greenwood but is he on crack? England dominated 60 mins and could not score how is that not a problem with the coaching? Just saw the Aundell try again, the pace of the ball being taken so far behind the gainline, he scored it despite the shite service.

I don't think Aus will let him walk through 4 tacklers again any more than Ire will wave Ardea to the tryline again.

Just a few 1 on 1 wins will do, not sure about your second point?

[Torquemada 1420]

There is a subplot here too. Yes, Eng's backs offer no threat but the game should still have been won with the possession they had. All too often, the fwds contrived to do something dim or were so poor at the breakdown, they simply gave up good ball.

Hill's behaviour was retarded but in terms of impact, he did a lot more than the clapping clockwork clown. Indeed, even his retarded behaviour got Aus a red so who knows what would have happened if Eng played against 15?

[JM2K6]

Eddie broke Dombrandt in training.

Look, I get these performances give everyone a chance to put the boot into their favourite targets, be it the boy with the hype, or Farrell, or whoever.

But the biggest problem England has is the fact that Eddie Jones refuses to coach them to play a modern structured game that gets the most out of the players we have. Both Smith and Farrell are hamstrung by this ridiculous approach. Farrell is asked to spend his time as a passing bot and has no opportunity to show he can run the ball and offload. Smith is asked to get the ball miles behind the gain line with a defence that has not been fixed and attacking players who are all having to do off the cuff stuff with no real partnerships and cohesion.

There's some seriously fucking good players out there. The starting 9, 10, 12, 13, 15 are a very good starting point for international rugby. But Eddie Jones has convinced himself this anti rugby deliberately shapeless shit is the way forward.

And all that happens is that we end up playing an anti-system that diminishes almost every player involved in it.

Farrell is 30yr old and captain if it isn't working he should call it out. If he isn't aware it isn't working he shouldn't be captain. We know coaches love Farrell and large part of that I suspect is he follows instructions exceptionally well but this a problem if the instructions are shit.

Eh?

No captain can alter an entire season's coaching. They've trained this way for all of 2022 at the very least. This weird unstructured Gleeson bullshit cannot be turned into an effective structured gameplan just because the captain says so. And uh, Farrell isn't captain. Lawes is.

This is more than just changing tactics. This is the core attacking gameplan that's been put into place under this coaching team.

[Torquemada 1420]

His distribution isn't shit and it wasn't shit today either.

And he does have a running game. Whether it can work at international level is another question entirely, but no one can have watched him this season and not been impressed by his work with ball in hand, allied to a new offloading game.

It's like saying Smith can't run either. Both made fuck all metres.

All very well behind a dominant Sarries pack in a proven to be weak GP comp.

Hey, I'm all for Eng reverting to Farrell at FH (as is most of the rest of the non England supporting world). And that should tell you everything...........

Smith ran plenty of m. Unfortunately they were nearly all sideways.

[JM2K6]

I don't want Farrell to be playing 10. I want him playing 12 and being allowed to be the player that Smith needs at 12 rather than a static pivot at 10 undermining himself and the 9 and 10.

[Torquemada 1420]

I don't want Farrell to be playing 10. I want him playing 12 and being allowed to be the player that Smith needs at 12 rather than a static pivot at 10 undermining himself and the 9 and 10.

Understood.

How many Eng players do you genuinely think (on form and not on potential or past glories) would make the starting Irish or French teams? Jones clearly lost it years ago but from the outside, there seems to be a lack of bona fide class, intl players.

[ASMO]

England are taking the ball so far behind the gainline its ridiculous and gives your wide runners little or no chance of doing anything against a drift defence. If you are going to do that, at least have a midfield that offers a threat to cause some indecision in the defence. England don't so it is dead easy to stop them. Everything about that is down to the coaching, nearly all those players play a lot flatter for their clubs, it is alien to them.

[Stranger]

Australia worked out England's attack after 10 minutes and then England just continued to do it

[ASMO]

Australia worked out England's attack after 10 minutes and then England just continued to do it

To be fair, they didnt need too many gray cells to do that.

[Kawazaki]

This is the sum total of the Eddie Jones ego with no limits and no tier above him. This is all on him. It's his selections, his non-selections, his coaches, his vision, his leadership and his inspiration.

And it's abysmal.

I don't find it surprising in the least that very often the newest players to this toxic environment look the best players when they come on. Jones has surrounded himself with rugby league trainees who can't question him. It's shambolic and shameful that the RFU have just ignored this problem for years. Literally years.

[Torquemada 1420]

Australia worked out England's attack after 10 minutes and then England just continued to do it

What attack?

[JM2K6]

I don't want Farrell to be playing 10. I want him playing 12 and being allowed to be the player that Smith needs at 12 rather than a static pivot at 10 undermining himself and the 9 and 10.

Understood.

How many Eng players do you genuinely think (on form and not on potential or past glories) would make the starting Irish or French teams? Jones clearly lost it years ago but from the outside, there seems to be a lack of bona fide class, intl players.

There's several British Lions and players who have been at the business end of World cups, won grand slams, been match winners in Europe, etc.

I think you're missing my point. It's not about the wrong tactics. It's that we've decided the way forward is no tactics at all. Completely off the cuff. All the time.

How good would the best players in the world be if they were coached like that by Martin Gleeson?

[Kawazaki]

Also worth remembering that that was the first game that Australia have played against any opposition since November 19th 2021.

[Torquemada 1420]

There's several British Lions and players who have been at the business end of World cups, won grand slams, been match winners in Europe, etc.

I think you're missing my point. It's not about the wrong tactics. It's that we've decided the way forward is no tactics at all. Completely off the cuff. All the time.

How good would the best players in the world be if they were coached like that by Martin Gleeson?

Clearly it isn't no tactics at all! It's a game plan that is at least 5 years out of date. It relies upon Eng's fwds beating the sh*t out of oppos for 80 mins (with too heavy (both senses) a reliance on Vunipola making yards from 8).

The only side that played** (I say past tense because both Flake and Hogg are dropped) off the cuff continuously was Sco: and even then, I think that was not coach instruction.......... hence the droppings.

You are right about one thing. It's easier to make good players into bad ones than to do the reverse. Witness Fre sides for decades!

** National. The Canes are guilty of it all the time.

You didn't really answer the question on quality players.

[JM2K6]

There's several British Lions and players who have been at the business end of World cups, won grand slams, been match winners in Europe, etc.

I think you're missing my point. It's not about the wrong tactics. It's that we've decided the way forward is no tactics at all. Completely off the cuff. All the time.

How good would the best players in the world be if they were coached like that by Martin Gleeson?

Clearly it isn't no tactics at all! It's a game plan that is at least 5 years out of date. It relies upon Eng's fwds beating the sh*t out of oppos for 80 mins (with too heavy (both senses) a reliance on Vunipola making yards from 8).

The only side that played** (I say past tense because both Flake and Hogg are dropped) off the cuff continuously was Sco: and even then, I think that was not coach instruction.......... hence the droppings.

You are right about one thing. It's easier to make good players into bad ones than to do the reverse. Witness Fre sides for decades!

** National. The Canes are guilty of it all the time.

You didn't really answer the question on quality players.

It's clear you have no idea what I'm talking about so there's no point trying to discuss this with you. No, it's not tactics from 5 years ago..

[Kawazaki]

England only kicked 18 times across the 80 minutes. Australia did so on 19 occasions. England completed 155 passes to Australia’s tally of 111.

This stat surprised me.

Maybe my memory fails me, but in the 6Ns England kicked a lot didn't they?

[SaintK]

Word is that Cooper will be out again on Saturday but that massive 1st choice TH Tupou has been training and will start.