Stop voting for fucking Tories

[Insane_Homer]

[Calculon]

We're back to the tolerance paradox.

I'm with JMK. There are some people whose views mean you just can't have a discussion. I remember back in the Obama days seeing a US politician say of a woman holding a banner with Obama sporting a Hitler 'stache imposed over a swastika that talking to people like her was akin to talking with a table.

A Tory supporter who wants to go over whether cutting or raising taxes will actually stimulate the economy is one thing. Wilfully misinterpreting Labour policy to mean they'd give a vote to anyone who can step on a UK beach is another entirely.

If this is his m.o. then he is welcome to fuck off, he's only detracting from the discussion.

[sockwithaticket]

[Insane_Homer]

Here's to cheering another massive Tory u-turn.

[Insane_Homer]

[petej]

Bojo rehashing an article from 2015?

[Ovals]

Your mortgage rate is going up again - but don't worry , the cap on Banker's Bonus is being lifted !

[JM2K6]

Yes, that's abuse. I also couldn't give a shit whether he thinks it's abuse or not; anyone who unironically shares Andy Ngo is deeply suspect, and if mdaclarke is representative of the regulary Tory voter then this country is in a much worse state than I realised. But he's not - he's just a fringe weirdo who'd be gobbling down Q-Anon shit if he lived in the USA.

You do keep proving him right though

Not really? Why is it okay for him to signal boost extremists and say shit that should turn off anyone who isn't alt-right or far-right, but as soon as someone gives him grief "it's the reason why people don't vote Labour"? He's not a serious poster. He's not getting abuse because he's not Labour. He's getting abuse, from me, because he constantly posts disingenuous shite, some of it sourced from some of the worst parts of the internet. If nothing else, his stance on immigration is enough for me to thoroughly dislike him, even if I hadn't read any of his other posts. It's just bad faith arguments all the way down - and if pushing back at that is why Labour loses elections, then Labour are fucked for eternity.

And to be fair, I was being relatively polite. And I don't think that me calling someone on a niche rugby forum a lunatic after having read their posts for years is going to change anyone's minds on who they're going to vote for.

[dpedin]

Well after todays shitshow I am more that ever convinced that we are seeing the actual implementation of 'Britannia Unchained' and 'The Sovereign Individual' in plain sight.

JRM was feckin awful in HoC being held to account for energy and fracking, just an out of his depth, supercilious and arrogant twat. Coffey is just an idiot who doesn't realise what an idiot she is and her ABCD for the NHS was truly lazy, shocking and infantile. A puerile analysis and no plans to address the real issues ie workforce. Setting out 'expectations' rather than real accountable targets and blaming GPs for everything was just pathetic. Hidden away was the aim to use the private sector as mush as possible to hit targets ie hidden privatisation. Targeting folk on Universal Credit who only work part time is just vicious and belies their beliefs that the British worker is lazy - see Britannia Unchained. The trailing of the 'Not the Budget' Fiscal Event has been scary, if you didn't have anything to hide then why not publish the OBR analysis? The whole 'levelling up' agenda has been binned by the very guys who sold it to us in the first place, it was La La Land anyway, and has been replaced by a nebulous 'growth' objective which essentially means Gov borrowing lots of money which Joe Public will need to pay back over next 10 - 20 years in order to line the pockets of their backers ie bankers, power industries, etc. I could go on .... Freeports and Charter Cities, no doubt called some other stupid name, scare the shit out of me.

We are really up shit creek without a paddle and the markets and exchanges are voting with their money. Obviously hiring 'experts' from the Taxpayer Alliance and IEA as the new gov economic advisors hasn't seemed to quell the fears of the markets This is a bunch of right wing zealots on a ideological spree, put in place by the ERG and going for broke before being found out. It is going to be a feckin shambles. I honestly despair.

[fishfoodie]

Well after todays shitshow I am more that ever convinced that we are seeing the actual implementation of 'Britannia Unchained' and 'The Sovereign Individual' in plain sight.

JRM was feckin awful in HoC being held to account for energy and fracking, just an out of his depth, supercilious and arrogant twat. Coffey is just an idiot who doesn't realise what an idiot she is and her ABCD for the NHS was truly lazy, shocking and infantile. A puerile analysis and no plans to address the real issues ie workforce. Setting out 'expectations' rather than real accountable targets and blaming GPs for everything was just pathetic. Hidden away was the aim to use the private sector as mush as possible to hit targets ie hidden privatisation. Targeting folk on Universal Credit who only work part time is just vicious and belies their beliefs that the British worker is lazy - see Britannia Unchained. The trailing of the 'Not the Budget' Fiscal Event has been scary, if you didn't have anything to hide then why not publish the OBR analysis? The whole 'levelling up' agenda has been binned by the very guys who sold it to us in the first place, it was La La Land anyway, and has been replaced by a nebulous 'growth' objective which essentially means Gov borrowing lots of money which Joe Public will need to pay back over next 10 - 20 years in order to line the pockets of their backers ie bankers, power industries, etc. I could go on .... Freeports and Charter Cities, no doubt called some other stupid name, scare the shit out of me.

We are really up shit creek without a paddle and the markets and exchanges are voting with their money. Obviously hiring 'experts' from the Taxpayer Alliance and IEA as the new gov economic advisors hasn't seemed to quell the fears of the markets This is a bunch of right wing zealots on a ideological spree, put in place by the ERG and going for broke before being found out. It is going to be a feckin shambles. I honestly despair.

Repeat after me; Stagflation !

Billions will be pissed away, & trillions loaded up on a generation already shafted by Brexit; & all in an attempt to win an election in two years time.

[C69]

Trickle down economics.
Surely decreasing stamp duty increases house prices and ergo inflation and interest rates.

[Insane_Homer]

Trickle down economics.
Surely decreasing stamp duty increases house prices and ergo inflation and interest rates.

They are just prepping for the mass buy up of property when the interest rate hikes make mortgages unaffordable.

[C69]

The proposed NI changes etc will make me and my family massively better off but. Ffs targetting people like me when millions are fecked on the breadline is morally bankrupt.
JRM is such an odious cnut... That is all

[Blackmac]

The proposed NI changes etc will make me and my family massively better off but. Ffs targetting people like me when millions are fecked on the breadline is morally bankrupt.
JRM is such an odious cnut... That is all

Surely a threshold raise is a far better way that doesn't disproportionately benefit the well off.

[I like neeps]

The proposed NI changes etc will make me and my family massively better off but. Ffs targetting people like me when millions are fecked on the breadline is morally bankrupt.
JRM is such an odious cnut... That is all

Surely a threshold raise is a far better way that doesn't disproportionately benefit the well off.

The point is to benefit the better off though.

I'll say one thing for Truss, she is unashamed in saying the Tory party exists for the city of london, high earners and asset owners and has modelled every policy intervention solely for them. Johnson and May tried to pretend there was some other purpose behind it all.

[tc27]

The proposed NI changes etc will make me and my family massively better off but. Ffs targetting people like me when millions are fecked on the breadline is morally bankrupt.
JRM is such an odious cnut... That is all

Surely a threshold raise is a far better way that doesn't disproportionately benefit the well off.

The point is to benefit the better off though.

I'll say one thing for Truss, she is unashamed in saying the Tory party exists for the city of london, high earners and asset owners and has modelled every policy intervention solely for them. Johnson and May tried to pretend there was some other purpose behind it all.

Think its about sending out pro business and wealth creation signals - yes its ironic when that same group took the most anti business decision of the last few decades in removing us from the EEA.

As ever with the UK the City, London and the SE of England is a tax revenue machine for the government - what's needed is a way to use this cash to make other parts of the UK more successful. This is what I think the 'levelling up' agenda was about but its going to take brave decisions like actually overriding NIMBYS and building more rail, roads and housing

[I like neeps]

Surely a threshold raise is a far better way that doesn't disproportionately benefit the well off.

The point is to benefit the better off though.

I'll say one thing for Truss, she is unashamed in saying the Tory party exists for the city of london, high earners and asset owners and has modelled every policy intervention solely for them. Johnson and May tried to pretend there was some other purpose behind it all.

Think its about sending out pro business and wealth creation signals - yes its ironic when that same group took the most anti business decision of the last few decades in removing us from the EEA.

As ever with the UK the City, London and the SE of England is a tax revenue machine for the government - what's needed is a way to use this cash to make other parts of the UK more successful. This is what I think the 'levelling up' agenda was about but its going to take brave decisions like actually overriding NIMBYS and building more rail, roads and housing

Indeed Kwarteng just said the bankers bonuses and 45% tax rate were abolished was so bankers create jobs in the UK and not Frankfurt or Paris. Does he know which policy he backed that cause the move?

[tc27]

In all sounding like quite a radical budget - they are not going to die not knowing and it gives Labour lots of easy attack lines.

[tabascoboy]

Only a local council, but...huge defeat in a rural area

[Insane_Homer]

[Insane_Homer]

[_Os_]

The whole 'levelling up' agenda has been binned by the very guys who sold it to us in the first place, it was La La Land anyway, and has been replaced by a nebulous 'growth' objective which essentially means Gov borrowing lots of money which Joe Public will need to pay back over next 10 - 20 years in order to line the pockets of their backers ie bankers, power industries, etc.

They say they're motivated by growth, but they're also liars.

Brexit means growth isn't their motivation otherwise there would be a deal with the EU which prioritised the UK economy. Theresa May's deal or CU membership was ditched to pursue independent trade deals. Then alignment on regulations was discarded in favour of divergence, this created the need for SPS checks on the border that have caused problems for UK agri businesses which export. All of this was done to secure a US trade deal (which are almost entirely goods focused, when the UK is a service sector economy), go back to 2017/2018/2019 and the likes of Hannan were claiming a US trade deal was a certainty and essentially the point of Brexit ("the Anglosphere!" blah blah). Now they're saying a US trade deal is impossible and isn't needed anyway, but there's no alignment with the EU either, and all the stuff about east Asia has gone cold (maybe they've worked out if you're not keen on China it becomes pointless). The choices that led them to this impasse are all still vigorously defended.

So they're motivated more by sovereignty than growth by a considerable margin. But they're liars, so you need to interrogate that too. Who actually owns the UK? The utilities are privatised, a large percentage of which is owned by foreign governments. The development model looks terrible, the main evidence being the lack of development for 40 years compared to peer nations (eg pumping vast quantities of shit into rivers and the sea is a solvable infrastructure problem).

So they're not primarily motivated by growth or by sovereignty. Which leaves either stupidity or malice as their main driver, a lot of them are just morons that don't know what they're doing.

[Insane_Homer]

[SaintK]

The "Brittania Unchained" budget appears to be going down like a horseshit sandwich in the markets

[sockwithaticket]

So they're not primarily motivated by growth or by sovereignty. Which leaves either stupidity or malice as their main driver, a lot of them are just morons that don't know what they're doing.

Yet think they do.

Of course there's room for being a malicious moron. Idiots doing what they're told by their paymasters despite the evidence that it's harming the country/populous.

[weegie01]

When do we get the Scottish budget so we can find if we get any of the cuts? My guess is very little will come our way.

[dpedin]

So they're not primarily motivated by growth or by sovereignty. Which leaves either stupidity or malice as their main driver, a lot of them are just morons that don't know what they're doing.

Yet think they do.

Of course there's room for being a malicious moron. Idiots doing what they're told by their paymasters despite the evidence that it's harming the country/populous.

They know exactly what they are doing - they wrote all about it in 'Sovereign Individual' and 'Britannia Unchained' and I agree are now funded by their rich paymasters. They believe in an unregulated, market driven big business multinational driven economy with minimal gov intervention and the focus on individuals working hard according to what they are worth. They all accept that along the way there will be damage to the economy, society and individuals before we reach this Unicorn Nirvana and we will be at a competitive advantage in the world because we have got there first. It is cloud cuckoo land dreamt up by the super rich and privileged in the debating halls of Oxbridge and dinner parties with no base in the reality of the world the rest of us live in. This is just the start folks, it will get a lot worse than this including the sell off of the NHS, further attacks on Unions and individual rights ie ECHR, Employment rights, etc, investment zones set up to become tax avoidance and quasi slave labour zones, etc. They will have the pedal to the metal as they know they only have 2 years to implement all this and tie the UK Gov into as much of their bullshit as possible, it is a suicide squad for the UK economy!

PS Putin will love the UK economy collapsing as it will before Xmas, I wonder how much it has cost him?

[dpedin]

OK some folk will not agree with him but this is a pretty realistic scenario we face after this 'budget'. Scary stuff!

[sockwithaticket]

So they're not primarily motivated by growth or by sovereignty. Which leaves either stupidity or malice as their main driver, a lot of them are just morons that don't know what they're doing.

Yet think they do.

Of course there's room for being a malicious moron. Idiots doing what they're told by their paymasters despite the evidence that it's harming the country/populous.

They know exactly what they are doing - they wrote all about it in 'Sovereign Individual' and 'Britannia Unchained' and I agree are now funded by their rich paymasters. They believe in an unregulated, market driven big business multinational driven economy with minimal gov intervention and the focus on individuals working hard according to what they are worth. They all accept that along the way there will be damage to the economy, society and individuals before we reach this Unicorn Nirvana and we will be at a competitive advantage in the world because we have got there first. It is cloud cuckoo land dreamt up by the super rich and privileged in the debating halls of Oxbridge and dinner parties with no base in the reality of the world the rest of us live in. This is just the start folks, it will get a lot worse than this including the sell off of the NHS, further attacks on Unions and individual rights ie ECHR, Employment rights, etc, investment zones set up to become tax avoidance and quasi slave labour zones, etc. They will have the pedal to the metal as they know they only have 2 years to implement all this and tie the UK Gov into as much of their bullshit as possible, it is a suicide squad for the UK economy!

PS Putin will love the UK economy collapsing as it will before Xmas, I wonder how much it has cost him?

Some of them do for sure, probably a greater proportion of DisasTruss' cabinet than Bojo the Clown's, but there are still plenty of Tories who just allow those who do have a plan, an evil plan, to lead them by the nose and are content to be useful idiots. Some clearly think that doing what they're told somehow makes them clever.

[dpedin]

Yet think they do.

Of course there's room for being a malicious moron. Idiots doing what they're told by their paymasters despite the evidence that it's harming the country/populous.

They know exactly what they are doing - they wrote all about it in 'Sovereign Individual' and 'Britannia Unchained' and I agree are now funded by their rich paymasters. They believe in an unregulated, market driven big business multinational driven economy with minimal gov intervention and the focus on individuals working hard according to what they are worth. They all accept that along the way there will be damage to the economy, society and individuals before we reach this Unicorn Nirvana and we will be at a competitive advantage in the world because we have got there first. It is cloud cuckoo land dreamt up by the super rich and privileged in the debating halls of Oxbridge and dinner parties with no base in the reality of the world the rest of us live in. This is just the start folks, it will get a lot worse than this including the sell off of the NHS, further attacks on Unions and individual rights ie ECHR, Employment rights, etc, investment zones set up to become tax avoidance and quasi slave labour zones, etc. They will have the pedal to the metal as they know they only have 2 years to implement all this and tie the UK Gov into as much of their bullshit as possible, it is a suicide squad for the UK economy!

PS Putin will love the UK economy collapsing as it will before Xmas, I wonder how much it has cost him?

Some of them do for sure, probably a greater proportion of DisasTruss' cabinet than Bojo the Clown's, but there are still plenty of Tories who just allow those who do have a plan, an evil plan, to lead them by the nose and are content to be useful idiots. Some clearly think that doing what they're told somehow makes them clever.

Agreed! The usual titbits are thrown their way in the form of income tax cuts etc. in order to get the real big issues through without too much dissent. They usual idiots will just do what they are told and go back to the shires or red wall seats telling them to be chuffed they are getting 1p off their tax, increase in stamp duty thresholds and are not paying the NI rise. However the bigger and scarier issues like 'investment zones', selling off the NHS and paying for the energy bills via huge borrowing requirements are ignored.

The Treasury is now in a fight with the BoE and I expect to see interest rates rise substantially over next few months. Ironically, despite the stamp duty changes, this will mean most folk will not be able to afford a new house ... apart from the now cash rich highest earners who will pick up buy to rent property cheap and expand their rental portfolios and income.

[Insane_Homer]

[_Os_]

So they're not primarily motivated by growth or by sovereignty. Which leaves either stupidity or malice as their main driver, a lot of them are just morons that don't know what they're doing.

Yet think they do.

Of course there's room for being a malicious moron. Idiots doing what they're told by their paymasters despite the evidence that it's harming the country/populous.

They know exactly what they are doing - they wrote all about it in 'Sovereign Individual' and 'Britannia Unchained' and I agree are now funded by their rich paymasters. They believe in an unregulated, market driven big business multinational driven economy with minimal gov intervention and the focus on individuals working hard according to what they are worth. They all accept that along the way there will be damage to the economy, society and individuals before we reach this Unicorn Nirvana and we will be at a competitive advantage in the world because we have got there first. It is cloud cuckoo land dreamt up by the super rich and privileged in the debating halls of Oxbridge and dinner parties with no base in the reality of the world the rest of us live in. This is just the start folks, it will get a lot worse than this including the sell off of the NHS, further attacks on Unions and individual rights ie ECHR, Employment rights, etc, investment zones set up to become tax avoidance and quasi slave labour zones, etc. They will have the pedal to the metal as they know they only have 2 years to implement all this and tie the UK Gov into as much of their bullshit as possible, it is a suicide squad for the UK economy!

PS Putin will love the UK economy collapsing as it will before Xmas, I wonder how much it has cost him?

This is where we go down a rabbit hole of what intelligence is, how much education matters and all the rest of it.

They're revolutionary zealots, they have one very simple ideology, and they will apply that narrow answer to every situation. They have no way of formulating novel answers outside of that simple ideology, nor can they ever understand anything complicated (which is most things). A lot of what they believe has been debunked, but they have revolutionary commitment so none of that makes any impression on them. Not convinced the majority of them are malicious, they just genuinely believe they have the answer and there will be sunlit uplands. It ends up being stupid.

[ASMO]

We are so fucked it is not even funny, this bunch of cunts could not care less, ideology over reality.

[dpedin]

Yet think they do.

Of course there's room for being a malicious moron. Idiots doing what they're told by their paymasters despite the evidence that it's harming the country/populous.

They know exactly what they are doing - they wrote all about it in 'Sovereign Individual' and 'Britannia Unchained' and I agree are now funded by their rich paymasters. They believe in an unregulated, market driven big business multinational driven economy with minimal gov intervention and the focus on individuals working hard according to what they are worth. They all accept that along the way there will be damage to the economy, society and individuals before we reach this Unicorn Nirvana and we will be at a competitive advantage in the world because we have got there first. It is cloud cuckoo land dreamt up by the super rich and privileged in the debating halls of Oxbridge and dinner parties with no base in the reality of the world the rest of us live in. This is just the start folks, it will get a lot worse than this including the sell off of the NHS, further attacks on Unions and individual rights ie ECHR, Employment rights, etc, investment zones set up to become tax avoidance and quasi slave labour zones, etc. They will have the pedal to the metal as they know they only have 2 years to implement all this and tie the UK Gov into as much of their bullshit as possible, it is a suicide squad for the UK economy!

PS Putin will love the UK economy collapsing as it will before Xmas, I wonder how much it has cost him?

This is where we go down a rabbit hole of what intelligence is, how much education matters and all the rest of it.

They're revolutionary zealots, they have one very simple ideology, and they will apply that narrow answer to every situation. They have no way of formulating novel answers outside of that simple ideology, nor can they ever understand anything complicated (which is most things). A lot of what they believe has been debunked, but they have revolutionary commitment so none of that makes any impression on them. Not convinced the majority of them are malicious, they just genuinely believe they have the answer and there will be sunlit uplands. It ends up being stupid.

Agree. Its a bit like the difference between complex and complicated problems. Building a space rocket is complicated but can be done with rules, systems, algorithms, etc within an organisational setting and command and control structures. However bringing up a child from birth is complex given the number of unknowns, variables, etc. We have bright but driven academic zealots in charge who have limited real world experience and who see running the country as a complicated problem they don't have the experience, skills and expertise to see it and manage it as a complex problem. Meanwhile pound and markets are tanking.

[tabascoboy]

Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng has unveiled the biggest package of tax cuts in 50 years, as he hailed a "new era" for the UK economy.

A "new era" of what exactly...

[Biffer]

When do we get the Scottish budget so we can find if we get any of the cuts? My guess is very little will come our way.

NI is set at UK level so will be carried through. I doubt the Scottish government will follow completely with the tax bands - what I'd hope they do is raise the entry point for the higher tax bands so that there isn't a marginal rate of 53%for the first part of the 41% band. That would be sensible, and go down quite well I think.

Whether we follow the 1% off Income Tax next April will probably not be confirmed until the budget statement next year.

Edit - I also don't see much need to replicate the Stamp Duty cuts.

[Biffer]

OK some folk will not agree with him but this is a pretty realistic scenario we face after this 'budget'. Scary stuff!

That's some fucking scary reading.

[JM2K6]

The country's being looted by a bunch of fanatics. We really are completely and utterly fucked.

[salanya]

We are so fucked it is not even funny, this bunch of cunts could not care less, ideology over reality.

It's infuriating - we're in a cost of living crisis with a large amount of working people reliant on foodbanks, and these cretins have no shame in justifying tax cuts that disproportionally favour the rich.

'The NI cut from November may cost you £15 less a month, ignoring that with rates increasing you have to pay an extra £50 a month on your mortgage. But don't worry, your gas and electricity bills are only doubling.
And don't you dare strike to ask for a pay rise to afford any of this, that would be unpatriotic.'

All to boost an economy which they've handicapped with their pursuit of Brexit and worsening relationships with the EU and US. And they seem to forget that 50% of the population will soon hardly be able to contribute to this economy, as they have no money left to go to restaurants and cinemas or decorate their house, or buy clothes or organise birthday parties.

And just to emphasise: we are 'led' in this economic madness by donkeys who were selected to be in power by 100k people, none of whom would ever have gone within 100 yards of a foodbank or job centre.

[tabascoboy]

OK some folk will not agree with him but this is a pretty realistic scenario we face after this 'budget'. Scary stuff!

That's some fucking scary reading.

No doubt the ensuing meltdown is already set to be blamed on:

Global factors
The war in Ukraine
The EU
Immigration
Lazy and feckless Britons
Jeremy Corbyn