Week 4 : England v New Zealand

[tc27]

Did NZ just do a lap of the stadium after a draw? :

[PCPhil]

Anyhows the last 10 mins shows we ‘can’ play so feeling better about life in general now. C’mon ee a land.

[Thor Sedan]

Did NZ just do a lap of the stadium after a draw? :

Probably just saying thanks to the numerous fans.

There are far more things to mock than them thanking fans.

[Lady P]

Did NZ just do a lap of the stadium after a draw? :

Nice

[Gumboot]

Did NZ just do a lap of the stadium after a draw? :

Probably just saying thanks to the numerous fans.

There are far more things to mock than them thanking fans.

Ain't that the truth.

[Paddington Bear]

Strange game deserved a strange finish. England were poor and had they been alright we would have won

[Brazil]

Did NZ just do a lap of the stadium after a draw? :

Nice one centurion. Nice one.

[Sandstorm]

Twitter fucknuckles having a go at Smith for taking the draw. Jesus.

It did show a distinct lack of ambition when facing 14 men, & in a game that's only meaningful in the possibility of getting one over on a big opponent.

Farrell just been asked about it and said that where the ball ended up would have made it difficult to get anything going as several England players were on the floor; if it had been in a more promising position, they might have gone for it.

Lame

[PCPhil]

Did NZ just do a lap of the stadium after a draw? :

Nice

I think there’s a few years material here.

[ASMO]

Did NZ just do a lap of the stadium after a draw? :

Nice one centurion. Nice one.

Looked like they had some sort of trophy or plate with them too. Was it the participation plate or the choke bowl?

[Brazil]

Did NZ just do a lap of the stadium after a draw? :

Nice one centurion. Nice one.

Looked like they had some sort of trophy or plate with them too. Was it the participation plate or the choke bowl?

A gorgette, perhaps?

[Ymx]

Sympathy decision to be honest

Well it was a costly sympathy decision

[Ymx]

Did NZ just do a lap of the stadium after a draw? :

Nice

I think there’s a few years material here.

What have we become?!!!

The shame Foster has brought to this jersey.


I missed it. Was it for BBBR and Farrell?

[Torquemada 1420]

There are an infinite number of parallel universes in which Smith is being pilloried for not kicking the ball out because one of our many morons has moroned in front of the posts. Anyone bitching about that kick needs to get real and remember what this England team is like.

Accept that as a fan's view. But if that was the reasoning process on the pitch

Maybe Marcus just knows he is surrounded by some of the stupidest people in the country?

Kinda my point. A real problem for Eng. :¬)

But it's not just Eng. I think we all notice dim more when it's our team but look at the level of stupid exhibited by Sco and Arg in particular.

[tc27]

Did NZ just do a lap of the stadium after a draw? :

Nice one centurion. Nice one.

Tips hat.

[Kiwias]

What a totally fucking weird match that was. One question: is anyone going to ask TJP what the fuck he was thinking when he put up the box kick at the end, with not a single AB chasing it?

[Grandpa]

What a totally fucking weird match that was. One question: is anyone going to ask TJP what the fuck he was thinking when he put up the box kick at the end, with not a single AB chasing it?

Apparently Ardie told him to kick it... then realised he was standing in front of TJ, so didn't chase...

[Monkey Magic]

What a totally fucking weird match that was. One question: is anyone going to ask TJP what the fuck he was thinking when he put up the box kick at the end, with not a single AB chasing it?

And also ask all the all blacks on the field why there were 13 of them standing within 5m of the ruck. That was an absolute amateur hour attempt to close out the game

[Paddington Bear]

Think that is the strangest test match I’ve ever seen. Hard to know what to say, even with a bit of time

[mos_eisely_]

What a totally fucking weird match that was. One question: is anyone going to ask TJP what the fuck he was thinking when he put up the box kick at the end, with not a single AB chasing it?

To be fair that allowed Young's to dodge the question as why he box kicked possession away with no-one chasing

[Gumboot]

What a totally fucking weird match that was.

It's a shame when a ref has such a negative influence on the game as a spectacle. Thirty+ penalties ffs. Also sad that BBBR and Farrell had their 100th caps end in an unsatisfying draw, although I doubt the latter will be too bothered. Reminds me a bit of the last Lions-ABs test of 2017 which ended 15-all... Kieran Read's 100th. These French refs sure like to remind everyone just what the game's really all about: themselves.

[Insane_Homer]

I was out, so I watched the first half, heard the score after 60mins, thought nothing more of it. Then much later was told the result. So on the way home waiting for a delayed train I watched the second half.

hoh lee fuck. Eng were dead and buried and getting penalised everytime they built any momentum. With 20 mins to go, expected the fight back to start, nothing.
15 mins to go, ABs still with the strangehold then 10 mins to go still comforatably out front.
An amazing last 10 mins from England. Astonishing match. No one could've predicted that scoreline after 70 mins.

[PCPhil]

I prepare for tomatoes to be thrown in my direction….

Ben Youngs actually helped steady the ship. Unless there is another scrum half we can throw in, in the short time remaining (another debate on why we have not done things sooner), I would be shuddering to watch JVP start against another top side. When they review the match I think they should blindfold him for his own good.

[Uncle fester]

I prepare for tomatoes to be thrown in my direction….

Ben Youngs actually helped steady the ship. Unless there is another scrum half we can throw in, in the short time remaining (another debate on why we have not done things sooner), I would be shuddering to watch JVP start against another top side. When they review the match I think they should blindfold him for his own good.

We've a similar issue with Murray. It's very tempting to only look at their faults but they do actually have some uses, especially when your coach is prepared to throw alternatives to the lions.

[Uncle fester]

Murray is much handsomer yes.
He also wears different size boots. Not that his left foot is a different size to his right foot. His feet are a different size to Youngs but the same size as each other.
Happy now?

[sockwithaticket]

I prepare for tomatoes to be thrown in my direction….

Ben Youngs actually helped steady the ship. Unless there is another scrum half we can throw in, in the short time remaining (another debate on why we have not done things sooner), I would be shuddering to watch JVP start against another top side. When they review the match I think they should blindfold him for his own good.

Tomato duly thrown on two fronts. First, how is JVP going to get any better if we don't play him? He's been fantastic coming off the bench over a few tests. It was time to see what he was like from the start against proper opposition. One swallow doesn't make a summer in both a positive and a negative sense. I think he should start against South Africa, give him a chance to shake it off and show he can do better. Which applies to the rest of the team too, frankly. He wasn't bad in a vacuum and some of his errors were down to the complete lack of protection the forwards were providing.

Second, Youngs came on at 54 minutes. We didn't do anything useful until the 69th. He wasn't some magical reviver of the team. There remains evidence from dozens of recent tests where he meerkats and farts around at the base critically slowing our ball down, throws the ball above, behind and below players (plus the patented Youngs miss pass to touch), doesn't snipe to keep the defence honest etc. etc. that he is a handbreak on the attack. One bad game from his apparent replacement and one alright performance from the bench does not eradicate all the reasons he's been so bemoaned in recent times.

[SaintK]

What a totally fucking weird match that was.

It's a shame when a ref has such a negative influence on the game as a spectacle. Thirty+ penalties ffs. Also sad that BBBR and Farrell had their 100th caps end in an unsatisfying draw, although I doubt the latter will be too bothered. Reminds me a bit of the last Lions-ABs test of 2017 which ended 15-all... Kieran Read's 100th. These French refs sure like to remind everyone just what the game's really all about: themselves.

I thought Raynal was very poor all round.
Hadn't realised the AB's had conceded as many penalties as England until the end.

[Ymx]

What a totally fucking weird match that was.

It's a shame when a ref has such a negative influence on the game as a spectacle. Thirty+ penalties ffs. Also sad that BBBR and Farrell had their 100th caps end in an unsatisfying draw, although I doubt the latter will be too bothered. Reminds me a bit of the last Lions-ABs test of 2017 which ended 15-all... Kieran Read's 100th. These French refs sure like to remind everyone just what the game's really all about: themselves.

I thought Raynal was very poor all round.
Hadn't realised the AB's had conceded as many penalties as England until the end.

I swear there is a KPI on refs to hand out a balanced number of penalties. So often to see a reversion of innocuous penalties being awarded from one team to the other between the two halves.

[Grandpa]

It's a shame when a ref has such a negative influence on the game as a spectacle. Thirty+ penalties ffs. Also sad that BBBR and Farrell had their 100th caps end in an unsatisfying draw, although I doubt the latter will be too bothered. Reminds me a bit of the last Lions-ABs test of 2017 which ended 15-all... Kieran Read's 100th. These French refs sure like to remind everyone just what the game's really all about: themselves.

I thought Raynal was very poor all round.
Hadn't realised the AB's had conceded as many penalties as England until the end.

I swear there is a KPI on refs to hand out a balanced number of penalties. So often to see a reversion of innocuous penalties being awarded from one team to the other between the two halves.

Like that penalty against Papalii for being within 10m of the up and under... even though he didn't compete for it. Yet a few minutes later an English player was within 5m and actually caught the ball... nothing... Raynal isn't even consistent, which makes his pedantry all the worse...

[Paddington Bear]

Yes Raynal is a poor ref not because he calls a lot of pens but because you have no faith in how he is doing so.

Going to have to try and watch this again as our half time scrummaging contest went on for some of the second half, but the last 10 minutes makes the shite served up by England this year and for the first 70 all the more frustrating. Poor old JvP, Youngs has another 20 caps in him

[JM2K6]

I thought Raynal was very poor all round.
Hadn't realised the AB's had conceded as many penalties as England until the end.

I swear there is a KPI on refs to hand out a balanced number of penalties. So often to see a reversion of innocuous penalties being awarded from one team to the other between the two halves.

Like that penalty against Papalii for being within 10m of the up and under... even though he didn't compete for it. Yet a few minutes later an English player was within 5m and actually caught the ball... nothing... Raynal isn't even consistent, which makes his pedantry all the worse...

On the first point, it's not enough that you compete, you have to actively retreat. Fairly common penalty that really punishes shallow kicks.

Anyway I'm sure England fans have gripes about him and the "ball is out" call must have really fucked with JVP's head, but to me it was a classic French ref display where anything goes until it doesn't.

I don't really understand how Stuart's first try was given but that's more of a TMO thing I guess.



Reffing aside, what a weird game. A good NZ side would've put a half century on us. And yet, that's the most balanced team I've seen from NZ since the last world cup. I guess if you're able to bring Goodhue and Jordan back into the mix you're not far off what the first choice XV should look like.

England were absolute dogshit for most of it. Tried hard but all at sea, loads of incredibly dumb decisions being made, and a general air of not knowing what the fuck they were trying to do, let alone how to achieve it. Eddie wants a team of robots and when we were faced with an opponent that had a clear plan to exploit a weakness of ours there was just no answer on the field. We're so far away from the old cliches of "T-CUP" and heads up rugby and playing what you see...

Nothing showed the folly of our current approach more than that last 15 minutes. England were forced to play a lot more reactively, forced to let Smith dictate things, forced to let talented players try and make things happen the way they thought they should. We have some very good players, and Guy Porter, and we saw a glimpse of what could happen if they were allowed to play a style of attacking rugby that they genuinely want to play and are suited to playing

Every member of that backline looked way better once circumstances dictated a change in approach.

There's still huge selection issues but time and again the major problems are the coaching and the tactical structure that is imposed as a fucking straitjacket by a control freak gremlin who believes at heart that England are fundamentally worse than all the other top nations at everything that isn't the set piece and running into people.

Also the decision to not go for the win was a huge red flag. Quins, Leicester, Saracens, Exeter - all those sides would go for it when winning would matter so much more than losing vs drawing. That's the on field 9, 10, 12, 13. Absolutely nuts that they refused to try.

[Paddington Bear]

What really frustrates me about the decision not to go for the win is that this is a side in desperate need of a 'foundational moment'. The spirit of a miraculous comeback resulting in beating the ABs could well have fired us through next year.

The last 10 minutes were the best rugby we've played all year. Smith took control, Faz and Slade worked effectively in midfield and Mako, Stewart, Ribbans and Curry provided good options and hands. I think there's a very high chance we end up scoring if we take a few phases at the end there, we had the ABs on toast and the crowd was rocking.
Hopefully there's something to build on, the Boks are beatable and we can see the side has talent. But fuck me the first 65 minutes were absolutely desperate.

[fishfoodie]

What really frustrates me about the decision not to go for the win is that this is a side in desperate need of a 'foundational moment'. The spirit of a miraculous comeback resulting in beating the ABs could well have fired us through next year.

The last 10 minutes were the best rugby we've played all year. Smith took control, Faz and Slade worked effectively in midfield and Mako, Stewart, Ribbans and Curry provided good options and hands. I think there's a very high chance we end up scoring if we take a few phases at the end there, we had the ABs on toast and the crowd was rocking.
Hopefully there's something to build on, the Boks are beatable and we can see the side has talent. But fuck me the first 65 minutes were absolutely desperate.

That's exactly it !!!

I'd argue that France V Ireland 2018, & those 41 phases to get the win at the death, was as big as that 1st win in Chicago. It showed a squad of players who had total faith in each other, & their abilities, & what they could do when all the subs were on, & after a long, hard game.

[tc27]

Thought it was a well worked AB restart...Englands loose forwards plus Farrel were all tied up in the first ruck.

He either had to pass to May or take it on himself from deep in Englands half...or kick it infield and invite a counter attack against a broken field. Chances of any option ending favourably well less than 50% IMO.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, from where the ruck was, I'd give us more chance of getting isolated and conceding a pen than going up field and winning.

On balance, I'd rather we'd rolled the dice, but can understand the decision.

[Ymx]

Not sure if you’ve rewatched it, but at the kick off England were extremely lucky as had player blocking catcher. ABs were all over it. The fling back to smith left him completely isolated in the middle and he was the furthest back, so everyone else would have been offside, had he kicked.

He also had a number of others signalling him to end it.

[Lobby]

Not sure if you’ve rewatched it, but at the kick off England were extremely lucky as had player blocking catcher. ABs were all over it. The fling back to smith left him completely isolated in the middle and he was the furthest back, so everyone else would have been offside, had he kicked.

He also had a number of others signalling him to end it.

Agree with this. His only real options were to kick it back to the ABs or try and run it himself with no one as a passing option or to secure the ball once he was tackled. I'd say the chance of him getting isolated and either giving up possession or a penalty were considerably more than 50%.

[JM2K6]

Er, I'm fairly sure he was standing where he was precisely because he was going to kick it out. If England had had any intention to win that game, they'd have acted very differently on the restart.

[Paddington Bear]

I fully get the logic of Smith's (and Faz and Youngs') decision at the end. From my perspective though it was worth rolling the dice. If that's a world cup semi, no doubt we kick it out and take the momentum to win in extra time. In a one off game which, let's be clear, we deserved to lose, why not give it a stab. As JMK says, the positioning is partly a factor of the decision itself. We could have tried a couple of pick and gos, hell we could have lumped it into their 22 and tried to nick a breakdown pen.
This team was in need of a moment, something to reconnect themselves to the top of test rugby. NZ should have been out of sight and weren't, and we turned down probably a 40-60% chance of engineering the most audacious comeback in test history. I'd put it in a similar category to Robshaw's decision in 2013(ish?) to take 3 points when we were 5 down or so with a couple of minutes to play against SA. Sure the logic is there but it didn't work out and world beaters would have gone to the corner.

Hopefully, the comeback has done its job anyway. We played flat to the line a lot, and when we didn't Faz and Slade helped move it wide very quickly. There were more offloads in the last 10 minutes than the rest of the game. Forwards charged onto the ball. It ought to be instructive as to how to beat the Boks, but we'll see.

[Raggs]

I fully get the logic of Smith's (and Faz and Youngs') decision at the end. From my perspective though it was worth rolling the dice. If that's a world cup semi, no doubt we kick it out and take the momentum to win in extra time. In a one off game which, let's be clear, we deserved to lose, why not give it a stab. As JMK says, the positioning is partly a factor of the decision itself. We could have tried a couple of pick and gos, hell we could have lumped it into their 22 and tried to nick a breakdown pen.
This team was in need of a moment, something to reconnect themselves to the top of test rugby. NZ should have been out of sight and weren't, and we turned down probably a 40-60% chance of engineering the most audacious comeback in test history. I'd put it in a similar category to Robshaw's decision in 2013(ish?) to take 3 points when we were 5 down or so with a couple of minutes to play against SA. Sure the logic is there but it didn't work out and world beaters would have gone to the corner.

Hopefully, the comeback has done its job anyway. We played flat to the line a lot, and when we didn't Faz and Slade helped move it wide very quickly. There were more offloads in the last 10 minutes than the rest of the game. Forwards charged onto the ball. It ought to be instructive as to how to beat the Boks, but we'll see.

If you end up losing that game to a penalty straight after the kick off, you lose a lot of that massively positive feeling of the come back beforehand. Even in just a one off game, it's a good feeling to carry into the next week/six nations etc.