Scabnose out!!!!!!

[TheFrog]

Far be it for a Quins fan to defend Smith but might i humbly suggest the "number 1 issue" is that the entire team played like absolute wankers from the first minute and looked like they didn't want to be there?

I am not singling our Smith. But I refer to Borthwick's interview where he said he picked Smith to run around France. But then rain happened and England opted for a kicking game.

Ah, my bad - I didn't hear him because I immediately become comatose when he starts talking.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... rowned-out

[JM2K6]

What is the best thing for the RFU to do now??

Appoint McCullum

[JM2K6]

I am not singling our Smith. But I refer to Borthwick's interview where he said he picked Smith to run around France. But then rain happened and England opted for a kicking game.

Ah, my bad - I didn't hear him because I immediately become comatose when he starts talking.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... rowned-out

Yeah, I've read it - It's a batshit insane piece. Smith was not good but to blame him for the defeat is genuinely deeply stupid. No, Ford would not have prevented us getting hammered, because although he has a better kicking game he is also not the entire team which suffered a catastrophic failure from the moment the game started.

I mean fuck, he even blames Smith's defence for both of Ollivon
s tries. On one he overran, like JVP, after our scrum got absolutely destroyed and French players flooded through unimpeded. On the other, Smith chased back to prevent a try being scored, dived on the ball, fought long enough to get support and ensure he wasn't carried over the try line, then Ollivon scored because he was actually paying attention to the ball unlike every other England player involved in that breakdown. What exactly would Ford have done differently? Would Farrell had even got to the ball first?

After five minutes we were 10-0 down because Henry Slade had dramatically shit the bed in defence. We repeatedly missed simple tackles, or put in terrible box kicks, or carried poorly, or got turned over at will. Ball was dropped, awful passes thrown, players bullied in contact. Very little of that had anything to do with whoever was picked to play 10. Smith put in some poor kicks and didn't play well but it would have been a miracle if he had and he was far from the worst. It is terrible journalism to point the finger at any selection decision when a side turns up and produces that sort of display from the start.

When Jack Willis, one of the best players over the ball I have seen, who has proven it against world class operators and been a huge high impact player for any side he plays for, misses hatfuls of tackles, looks completely lost at the breakdown, and genuinely looks out of his depth while most other players in his side are having similar struggles, then you know something is deeply wrong. And it's not the kicking game.

[Sandstorm]

Smith was a bright light - so was Steward - in a very dark England performance. Those blaming him or think Ford, Farrell, Dan Carter or Captain America could have done a better job are high.

[TheFrog]

When Jack Willis, one of the best players over the ball I have seen, who has proven it against world class operators and been a huge high impact player for any side he plays for, misses hatfuls of tackles, looks completely lost at the breakdown, and genuinely looks out of his depth while most other players in his side are having similar struggles, then you know something is deeply wrong. And it's not the kicking game.

The weird thing is Jack Willis had plenty of teammates on the field. There were 11 Toulouse players at kick off lining up for the game. And another 2 came on from the bench.

Willis does so well for Toulouse.

I think England were shell shocked and heads dropped. The second Flament try killing any hope.

The second Ollivon try should have been a penalty against Dupont who never released Smith btw.

[JM2K6]

Smith was a bright light - so was Steward - in a very dark England performance. Those blaming him or think Ford, Farrell, Dan Carter or Captain America could have done a better job are high.

Even Steward made multiple bad errors tbh. But he had multiple excellent moments to go with them.

[TheFrog]

Smith was a bright light - so was Steward - in a very dark England performance. Those blaming him or think Ford, Farrell, Dan Carter or Captain America could have done a better job are high.

No, again, I think the blame is for Borthwick. Why expose Smith, why pick him, when you expect the game to be a trench war with heavy artillery and shells flying over heads.

But, agree, Ford or Farrell wouldn't have changed a thing. People should question the forwards performance first. So much for Genge's captaincy.

[JM2K6]

Smith was a bright light - so was Steward - in a very dark England performance. Those blaming him or think Ford, Farrell, Dan Carter or Captain America could have done a better job are high.

No, again, I think the blame is for Borthwick. Why expose Smith, why pick him, when you expect the game to be a trench war with heavy artillery and shells flying over heads.

But, agree, Ford or Farrell wouldn't have changed a thing. People should question the forwards performance first. So much for Genge's captaincy.

Because Smith should be able to deal with that. It's part of the job description. And frankly having watched enough of him at club level it's entirely reasonable to expect him to be able to change approach, because he played enough games under Gustard where the safety first approach was all the rage, and he's pulled the team to victory when physically overmatched on more than a few occasions. He gets the hype for the showreel stuff but he's a proper fly half, not some sort of winger trying to play 10, and he absolutely should be judged as such (which also means his coaches trusting him with that).

Yes if you want to only kick and chase as your primary tactic, there are probably better alternatives. That doesn't mean he's incapable of it, no more than Ford is incapable of playing flat and guiding a rapid attacking side. Neither of them are one dimensional.

[Gumboot]

Hey Ymx, what's with your new avatartan?

Showing support for the Scots this weekend against the Irish, to open up the championship. So looked up tartan linked to my surname.

[Biffer]

Hey Ymx, what's with your new avatartan?

Showing support for the Scots this weekend against the Irish, to open up the championship. So looked up tartan linked to my surname.

Robertson?

[Gumboot]

Hey Ymx, what's with your new avatartan?

Showing support for the Scots this weekend against the Irish, to open up the championship. So looked up tartan linked to my surname.

Robertson?

[Paddington Bear]

Smith was a bright light - so was Steward - in a very dark England performance. Those blaming him or think Ford, Farrell, Dan Carter or Captain America could have done a better job are high.

No, again, I think the blame is for Borthwick. Why expose Smith, why pick him, when you expect the game to be a trench war with heavy artillery and shells flying over heads.

But, agree, Ford or Farrell wouldn't have changed a thing. People should question the forwards performance first. So much for Genge's captaincy.

Because Smith should be able to deal with that. It's part of the job description. And frankly having watched enough of him at club level it's entirely reasonable to expect him to be able to change approach, because he played enough games under Gustard where the safety first approach was all the rage, and he's pulled the team to victory when physically overmatched on more than a few occasions. He gets the hype for the showreel stuff but he's a proper fly half, not some sort of winger trying to play 10, and he absolutely should be judged as such (which also means his coaches trusting him with that).

Yes if you want to only kick and chase as your primary tactic, there are probably better alternatives. That doesn't mean he's incapable of it, no more than Ford is incapable of playing flat and guiding a rapid attacking side. Neither of them are one dimensional.

My only real criticism of Smith is that we chased the game from within the first 20 minutes. That probably would have worked at club level but in reality we just needed to stick in the contest and get to half time.

[Ymx]

Showing support for the Scots this weekend against the Irish, to open up the championship. So looked up tartan linked to my surname.

Robertson?

[OomStruisbaai]

England players is useless not the coach.

[JM2K6]

No, again, I think the blame is for Borthwick. Why expose Smith, why pick him, when you expect the game to be a trench war with heavy artillery and shells flying over heads.

But, agree, Ford or Farrell wouldn't have changed a thing. People should question the forwards performance first. So much for Genge's captaincy.

Because Smith should be able to deal with that. It's part of the job description. And frankly having watched enough of him at club level it's entirely reasonable to expect him to be able to change approach, because he played enough games under Gustard where the safety first approach was all the rage, and he's pulled the team to victory when physically overmatched on more than a few occasions. He gets the hype for the showreel stuff but he's a proper fly half, not some sort of winger trying to play 10, and he absolutely should be judged as such (which also means his coaches trusting him with that).

Yes if you want to only kick and chase as your primary tactic, there are probably better alternatives. That doesn't mean he's incapable of it, no more than Ford is incapable of playing flat and guiding a rapid attacking side. Neither of them are one dimensional.

My only real criticism of Smith is that we chased the game from within the first 20 minutes. That probably would have worked at club level but in reality we just needed to stick in the contest and get to half time.

Aye. He overplayed his hand with the low percentage options with the boot. The handling errors are whatever.

[Enzedder]

Poor auld Steve - gets called out for failing to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Can't do too much without the right cattle - just ask Fozzie (but then again, he picked them so he deserves the hubris).

[Kawazaki]

Fuck it.

I've always given new coaches a chance and probably supported them for far too long once things have gone downhill. Trying something new and seeing how it feels. It would obviously be awful if this blows up in my face.

He is woefully underqualified for the role, is completely out of his depth as a tactician, has no experience of top level coaching that isn't completely tainted by Eddie Jones (bar a short stint with the Lions), and he was a legendarily shit England captain who was the safe establishment man.

England rugby had a choice between him or Robertson and didn't even consider any to alternative to Steve "Steve" Borthwick, a robot in human skin who can put epileptics to sleep just by talking at them and who considers booting the ball in the air to be the high point of rugby strategy. Somehow he's taken a talented group, got them showing signs of life, then led them to the biggest humiliation we've ever suffered at home outside of the world cup that should not be mentioned. And he's going to bring in Richard fucking Wigglesworth to be another version of him that's even less appropriate a choice.

I am completely confident that this thread will be proven prescient in the next 2-48 months and I will tell you all I told you so.

BORTHWICK OUT!

I told you this before Borthwick got the job.

[Slick]

Poor auld Steve - gets called out for failing to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Can't do too much without the right cattle - just ask Fozzie (but then again, he picked them so he deserves the hubris).

This seems obvious. Apparently not

[Paddington Bear]

I’m not sure it’s entirely the talent that’s lacking. What’s IMO definitely true is because Eddie spent three years dicking around Borthwick has taken over a team starting from scratch just as those who’ve used the cycle wisely are peaking.

[Guy Smiley]

Poor auld Steve - gets called out for failing to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Can't do too much without the right cattle - just ask Fozzie (but then again, he picked them so he deserves the hubris).

This seems obvious. Apparently not

It bears pointing out though, that just like Foster, Borthwick was part of the coaching regime before taking the top job. Foster has had 3 years in the role, Borthwick has only just taken over. Of course, Borthwick will need more time to show us what he can do and he has inherited a mess. The same players though, are capable of better games. Just like Foster, Borthwick is accountable for the mess. Blaming players is an excuse.

[TheFrog]

A big part of what we saw has to do with the low morale in the English squad I think. An old England, full of self belief would have soaked in the pressure and would have mounted a fight after the first 10 minutes of French euphoria. But that team doubts, lacks self belief and never thought they could come back.

[ASMO]

He seriously has to go

[MaccTaff]

You can’t really sack Borthwick can you?

Apart from anything else, who on earth would you hire?

[notfatcat]

Fuck it.

I've always given new coaches a chance and probably supported them for far too long once things have gone downhill. Trying something new and seeing how it feels. It would obviously be awful if this blows up in my face.

He is woefully underqualified for the role, is completely out of his depth as a tactician, has no experience of top level coaching that isn't completely tainted by Eddie Jones (bar a short stint with the Lions), and he was a legendarily shit England captain who was the safe establishment man.

England rugby had a choice between him or Robertson and didn't even consider any to alternative to Steve "Steve" Borthwick, a robot in human skin who can put epileptics to sleep just by talking at them and who considers booting the ball in the air to be the high point of rugby strategy. Somehow he's taken a talented group, got them showing signs of life, then led them to the biggest humiliation we've ever suffered at home outside of the world cup that should not be mentioned. And he's going to bring in Richard fucking Wigglesworth to be another version of him that's even less appropriate a choice.

I am completely confident that this thread will be proven prescient in the next 2-48 months and I will tell you all I told you so.

BORTHWICK OUT!

All rights reserved. © Toga 2022

I told you this before Borthwick got the job.

Better?

[fishfoodie]

He seriously has to go

Eddie has already rinsed the RFU with his payoff; to do the same for Scabnose, & all the team he's brought in would drive the Union to bankruptcy

[Tichtheid]

Poor auld Steve - gets called out for failing to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Can't do too much without the right cattle - just ask Fozzie (but then again, he picked them so he deserves the hubris).

This seems obvious. Apparently not

Genge might get into a few other teams, but I wouldn't trade him for Schoeman - the others in the front row? Meh.

Itoje is one of the best players on the planet when he's on form, but he isn't (he was still the best England player today though).

The back row are nothing to write home about, really nothing.

I'm not sure the England scrum half problem is going away anytime soon, but Marcus Smith is a genuine talent, he would thrive elsewhere.

The centres look uninspired and way off the others in the 6N. I really like Anthony Watson, but a winger isn't going to make up for everyone else.


It's possible that the players are better than the level they are playing at, and that falls to the coaches, it takes time for things to bed in. I don't know, but England are not at the level we've come to expect of them.

[petej]

Borthwick turned Tigers around pretty quickly but we might get worse before we get better. Agree with frog on the morale issue.

[fishfoodie]

Borthwick turned Tigers around pretty quickly but we might get worse before we get better. Agree with frog on the morale issue.

Ahh there's no comparison between club level & what they faced today.

He's trying to evaluate players without actually being able to play with the EPS too much, & define a team strategy for defence & attack.

England today looked like they were in slow motion, while France were the duracell bunnies.

Having the toughest two matches last just gave a lot of the fans a false sense of where the team was.

[notfatcat]

Having the toughest two matches last just gave a lot of the fans a false sense of where the team was.

There maybe some truth to that but not even England's harshest critic would think that the mental weakness and lack of effort and brains today was par for the course or resmbled anything seen in the 3 previous matches.

[TheFrog]

Having the toughest two matches last just gave a lot of the fans a false sense of where the team was.

There maybe some truth to that but not even England's harshest critic would think that the mental weakness and lack of effort and brains today was par for the course or resmbled anything seen in the 3 previous matches.

If anger and pride feed that team, next week in Dublin will be an epic battle. The pack, at least, can do better than what we have seen.

[Niegs]

You can’t really sack Borthwick can you?

Apart from anything else, who on earth would you hire?

... seriously, is it any wonder things are like this when so many former players are hired to coach, presumably running inferior or only-as-good versions of the teams they coached on. I wonder how many are truly insightful, creative, excellent at assessment and management of players? If Borthwick happens to be the best of the bunch, then he's limited by the average/robotic players clubs are feeding him.

[Chilli]

I'm not really understanding why people are saying that Borthwick needs more time etc.

He is a professional coach with professional people surrounding him.

He chooses a team of professional rugby players who are all very well paid by their clubs to catch, pass, scrum, tackle, kick etc. This is why he choses them.

Surely it shouldn't take that long for this professional management team to show this group of professional players how to play the gameplan that they want? It can't be a foreign concept for all the professional players. How drastic is the difference between what their Clun coaches want to what Borthwick wants?

If, after a few weeks together, the professional team of players and coaches can only produce a display like yesterday then the problems are much deeper.

[PCPhil]

I’m not sure it’s entirely the talent that’s lacking. What’s IMO definitely true is because Eddie spent three years dicking around Borthwick has taken over a team starting from scratch just as those who’ve used the cycle wisely are peaking.

Jones has gone. Think there’ll have to be a point when it’s Not his fault any more.

For what its worth…. I don’t get to see much premiership rugby (no way i am taking out multiple TV contracts) but the Sale v Saracens match was on TV last week and I tuned in thinking this should be a good match. Turned off after about 20 minutes. The skills level, speed and ambition were way below what you would see in an average URC match from mid table upwards.

[Paddington Bear]

I’m not sure it’s entirely the talent that’s lacking. What’s IMO definitely true is because Eddie spent three years dicking around Borthwick has taken over a team starting from scratch just as those who’ve used the cycle wisely are peaking.

Jones has gone. Think there’ll have to be a point when it’s Not his fault any more.

For what its worth…. I don’t get to see much premiership rugby (no way i am taking out multiple TV contracts) but the Sale v Saracens match was on TV last week and I tuned in thinking this should be a good match. Turned off after about 20 minutes. The skills level, speed and ambition were way below what you would see in an average URC match from mid table upwards.

Sure, but when four of the other six have been building for four years and we haven’t the results are predictable.

The top sides in the prem compete well with the top sides in the URC and Top 14 bar Leinster. There are issues with the standard and how it preps players for international rugby but that’s the same in all leagues.

[Guy Smiley]

I’m not sure it’s entirely the talent that’s lacking. What’s IMO definitely true is because Eddie spent three years dicking around Borthwick has taken over a team starting from scratch just as those who’ve used the cycle wisely are peaking.

Jones has gone. Think there’ll have to be a point when it’s Not his fault any more.

For what its worth…. I don’t get to see much premiership rugby (no way i am taking out multiple TV contracts) but the Sale v Saracens match was on TV last week and I tuned in thinking this should be a good match. Turned off after about 20 minutes. The skills level, speed and ambition were way below what you would see in an average URC match from mid table upwards.

Coaches create a culture. That’s how they operate, bringing their players on board, if you can forgive my use of that particular phrase.

Creating a culture takes a good couple of years at least. It’s obviously an intense and complex thing. The players have to be trained to the point where not having to think about what the coach wants is natural and they are switched on to the program, the plan, the plot. Whatever.

It’s going to take a similar length of time to cleanse that cultural imprint and establish a successor. In that sense, it’s going to be ‘Jones’ fault’ for a good while yet.

I think JMK nailed a good argument in his OP as to why Borthwick is probably not the guy to take it all forward.

[Jim Lahey]

Is he gone yet?

[PCPhil]

Is he gone yet?

Press conf at 11 am

[Jim Lahey]

Apart from Tom Curry and Courtney Lawes, who was out injured yesterday that would have otherwise likely have started?

The two above wouldve made a big difference tbf.

[sockwithaticket]

Apart from Tom Curry and Courtney Lawes, who was out injured yesterday that would have otherwise likely have started?

The two above wouldve made a big difference tbf.

Maybe Cowan-Dickie ahead of George. If Launchbury hadn't had to flee to Japan after the demise of Wasps he might have been involved in the second row

That's pretty much it, though. One of the things we've all found so concerning is that this is a selection you can't pick much fault with.

Curry's not even a guaranteed starter anymore imo, form's been just ok for a little bit.

[Torquemada 1420]

FM: some of this is mental. Blaming a FH when his fwds were annihilated. Almost as mental as blaming the fwds when they provide a good platform for a FH's failing to ever get his backs into the game.............. Farrell and Ntamack anyone?

Smith made 50m+. One of only 2 Eng players to do so in a game where they went backwards at every opportunity. The other player was Steward and making ground from FB is always a distortion. Alldritt made more m from 8 than the entire Eng pack. That's where the problems mainly lay.