So, coronavirus...

[mat the expat]

I was a well known online PR advocate for change. Seriously though I did engage with politicians on the matter and have been politically engaged most of my life. I was right on most things and that comforts me as I like being right.

[Paddington Bear]

There is no question it was serious for a period and knocked out a load of old vulnerable people. Did it warrant the response we got and was sustained? Nah

The world went fucking mental. Performative travel bans, wearing masks outside, not allowing kindergarteners to take of their masks, zero COVID weirdos, China going crazy and on the other side the anti vax nutters. Thank God it's mostly over.

Anecdotal but for my family the (continuing) effects of lockdown have been far, far more serious than the effects of Covid would likely have been

[Ymx]

I was a well known online PR advocate for change. Seriously though I did engage with politicians on the matter and have been politically engaged most of my life. I was right on most things and that comforts me as I like being right.

Looks like you got lost!

Wrong forum.

Not to worry, here you go

https://forum.planetrugby.com/viewforum.php?f=3

[mat the expat]

I was a well known online PR advocate for change. Seriously though I did engage with politicians on the matter and have been politically engaged most of my life. I was right on most things and that comforts me as I like being right.

Looks like you got lost!

Wrong forum.

Not to worry, here you go

https://forum.planetrugby.com/viewforum.php?f=3

Sorry Bambi?

Don't you have something anti-Vax to write?

[dpedin]

There is no question it was serious for a period and knocked out a load of old vulnerable people. Did it warrant the response we got and was sustained? Nah

The world went fucking mental. Performative travel bans, wearing masks outside, not allowing kindergarteners to take of their masks, zero COVID weirdos, China going crazy and on the other side the anti vax nutters. Thank God it's mostly over.

Anecdotal but for my family the (continuing) effects of lockdown have been far, far more serious than the effects of Covid would likely have been

It is difficult one and you are right it is anecdotal but the impact of the pandemic has been multi factorial and impacted everyone differently. For me it was suffering a dangerous pulmonary embolism that could have killed me! Thankfully I am back to full fitness apart from having to take blood thinners for the rest of my life. Who knows how covid could have affected you or your family? However for the 166,000 families who lost a loved one and the hundreds of thousands who have suffered and may still suffer from long covid then the pandemic has been equally a nightmare.

There are no winners during a major pandemic ... apart from Tory MPs, donors, mates and crooks who made millions from selling us dodgy PPE, testing kit, consultancy, disaster capitalists, oil and gas companies, loans to non existent companies, etc - they are about the only winners.

[Biffer]

The key thing from early in the pandemic is that we were, frankly, guessing about the trade offs you mention, because one side of the trade had no information associated with it. They didn't know if it was more dangerous to risk your exposure to the disease on top of the horrible disease you were suffering / recovering from (apols, not clear which stage you were at the time). Utterly shit position for everyone but the public health response is to err on the side of caution towards the unknown factor.

[Tichtheid]

From here https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... s-research

At least 77,000 hospital staff in England caught coronavirus during the pandemic, while there were nearly a quarter of a million absences for Covid-related reasons, Guardian research has revealed.

However, the true totals are likely to be much higher, because out of the 142 acute and specialist trusts in England sent freedom of information requests, only 55% (78) provided figures on staff who were infected, while 60% (85) gave data on time off for sick leave related to the virus.

The responses, which cover the year following 1 March 2020, offer the first official data on Covid’s impact on frontline workers who risked their own health while caring for the more than 400,000 patients who have ended up seriously ill in hospital.

They show that at least 77,735 doctors, nurses and other hospital personnel contracted Covid, while staff had 243,864 periods of absence – either because they had the disease or were isolating, quarantining or shielding – exacerbating existing workforce shortages.

Of the trusts sent requests, 75 (53%) provided figures on infected staff who went on to die of Covid, totalling 152 deaths. This appears to underestimate the total, given that ministers have already acknowledged at least 305 deaths involving Covid-19 among healthcare workers.

and

from here

https://nhscharitiestogether.co.uk/6000 ... -pandemic/

An estimated 60,000 NHS workers could be living with post-traumatic stress as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic, new research suggests.1 With nine in ten NHS staff (89%) saying it will take many years for them to recover from the pandemic

I said before that my next door neighbour is a medical researcher but was called into the wards because she is also a qualified nurse. I liken it to new conscripts being called up to fight on the front line, replacing the ones who have fallen.
This was pre-vaccine, she didn't know how serious it was, all she knew was that people were on ventilators and some were dying and they didn't have the equipment they needed. She didn't know if she was taking the virus back to her young family when she did get to see them.

It was fucking awful for everyone, from those in the wards, patients and staff, to those who couldn't attend funerals to those who couldn't get the care they desperately needed.

What would be tragic is that if we don't learn from the past three years and don't prepare for the next one, whatever it might be.

[dpedin]

You and Mat can't be honest brokers anymore than some anti vaxer could be. You are compromised. We all are. My position was based on the fact I was unwell prior to the pandemic, vulnerable in covid parlance, and suddenly my illness didn't really matter. No scans. No consultants. The odd phone call to a lad just finished aggressive cancer treatment. And before you try and justify that don't bother. The world lost its mind for a disease that was not that serious for the vast vast majority of people. The point I made at the time was if the world was so worried about protecting the vulnerable why did I keep getting sepsis when on chemo. Because life and risk has trade offs and the risk to people on chemo has to be balanced with all of other wifes needs and pressures. It was managed appalingly and people who questioned it got labeled as anti vaxers and extremists when were neither. I support vaccination in all its for.s though to be fair questioning children being forced to get a vaccine for something that is zero risk to them is prudent. Of course there is now recriminations and of course the supporters like you don't want to admit you were wrong.

I'm sorry about your illness and experiences during covid but as others have said no-one knew what they were dealing with in the early days and we certainly didnt know how serious it was or could have been for the population as a whole. As the pandemic evolved we did learn more about the virus and who was most at risk but even then treatments were still evolving and throughout 2020 medics were struggling to know how to manage and treat covid patients - remember the early rush for ventilators but then changed to CPAP machines as ventilators were found to do as much harm for some patients as they did good for others. There were no pharmaceuticals which medics could depend on unless you believed Trump with his bleach and ivermectin options. In most of 2020 the NHS was trying to protect everyone not just the vulnerable and it was a difficult balancing act for medics many of whom were working all the hours in hugely restrictive PPE and not confident they weren't exposing themselves to a deadly disease. I had numerous mates who are docs who fell into the vulnerable age group who went in to work in the wards not knowing if they were going to catch it and die. Unfortunately this did mean their own patients in their own specialities were having to wait for treatment but the most serious and at risk ones were still seen and treated. However capacity for other work across the hospital was drastically reduced as, for example, theatres and recovery areas were converted into ICUs and theatre staff asked to work in ICU or Critical Care and as a consequence surgical work was dramatically reduced. Everyone including student docs and nurses, NHS admin staff and retired folk were drafted in to work in the hospitals and they were all heroes in my eyes.

You make it sound like it is a 'them v us' argument and I dont think that is a fair assessment to make. As I said earlier there were no winners in dealing with a pandemic of a new and dangerous virus, many folk suffered in one way or another. However as I also said earlier hindsight is a wonderful thing and to say we shouldn't have done x, y or z because of a 'disease which was not that serious for the vast majority of people' is unfair given when the pandemic spread in early 2020 we didn't know this at all so a prudent and safety first response was essential to slow community transmission and buy time in order to find out what we were dealing with. There are no recriminations, I am not sure what you think I 'support' nor am I sure what you think it is I dont want to admit I got wrong?

Re vaccinations - we vaccinate children for many diseases for which there is a infinitesimally small risk of them catching it, however given how safe vaccines are we decide for the greater good to vaccinate everyone when they are children in order to minimise harm to society as a whole ie diphtheria, tetanus. We also vaccinate children against common diseases/viruses which are very common or spread easily but might have a big impact on a very small number who catch it ie flu. Given how safe the covid vaccine is then surely it is worth considering it for children particularly those at risk?

[Sandstorm]

There were winners. You won. People who thought we should lock down to keep them safe. They won.

Mate, you’re still here. Don’t let your bitterness consume you. It’s not healthy.

[Biffer]

I fundamentally disagree with many of your points. I did then and I do now. I also resented then being made feel like an extremist for thinking letting people die on their own was disgusting. The whole thing got wrapped up in left amd right and culture wars bollox. The scenes in Italy at the start were 100% politically driven yet we trotted along like twats. It really is eye boggingly bad and I suppose it is some small consolation that men and women who were in charge have started admitting they fucked up

The left v right stuff didn't really kick in immediately.

[Ymx]

There were winners. You won. People who thought we should lock down to keep them safe. They won.

I’m not sure about them feeling like they won. Over a year ago dpedin was desperate to return to mandated mask wearing and other restrictions. JM was quite vocal as well.

We didn’t return to their desired restrictions.

Mar 22

Guy, you’re living under the NZ experience, which is behind the rest of the world in terms of the endemic (and brilliantly behind on deaths of course), and more subject to state controlled media. So I don’t know the typical kiwi reflects the global view very well.

My views have evolved admittedly.

I don’t think mandating mask wearing is ever going to be the way forward. And especially where there is zero end game. Except in the temporary conditions I stated above.

There has been less flu, and cold because of it, yes of course. And consequently, it’s probably going to hammer many immune systems when they do start getting exposed to it again. Like the super cold we had here in the UK last year. It’s the way we are built. Immunological memory reduces severity and keeps us alive.

I would rather have been in NZ which has had about 1% of the UK deaths, fewer days with the population locked down than the UK and an economy which has performed at least as good if not better than the UK. They now have a higher vaccination rate than the UK. NZ has no where near the waiting times nor backlogs in its healthcare system compared to the NHS in the UK. Sounds to me NZ did rather well?

The point of wearing masks, distancing where possible, opening windows and ensuring good ventilation, etc when we have a highly infectious air borne virus circulating is to try and reduce community transmission - simples! The end game is to try and avoid people contracting covid and therefore reduce pressure on the NHS (15,000 covid hospitalisations at the moment means the NHS can't possibly operate normally) and at the same time buy time so we can continue to vaccinate the pop and improve the vaccines and other treatments on offer. I am confident that the scientific community will do both relatively quickly given how fast they were able to develop the initial vaccines. I am in no doubt from what I hear that we will have even more effective vaccines and treatments by the end of this year. This is the end game.

The scientists will of course continue to develop new improved vaccines and treatments if we don't follow the simple PH mitigations and just give up on trying to control community transmission. We will reach the same end point but the difference will be how we get there - letting it run loose means we will continue to have far more cases, more hospitalisations and more deaths and a real risk of further lock downs. I don't want lock downs! This seems to be the UK approach, which so far has been one of the worst performing in terms of deaths and economics. Letting a novel and deadly virus with as yet not fully understood long term implications run unchecked in a population is just plain stupid. Not taking even the simplest of PH mitigations when we have very high levels of cases and hospitalisations is just plain stupid.

Dec 21

Hmm, you're suggesting that masks are pointless. They're a mitigation. They're not pointless.

No, I’m not. They are a mitigation, perhaps a fairly subtle weak one, but a mitigation.

I’m saying we didn’t need to wear masks, then Omicron happened, and we now do.

OK, but you do realise the our "freedom" has been really fucking stupid, right?

[JM2K6]

Not entirely sure what's being argued here - there was another deadly wave in early 2022. Thanks to the vaccine situation, nowhere near as bad as the first two, but significantly worse than the following one. We could have avoided that.

But more pertinently, it happened and I moved on. I haven't argued for mass use of masks or for further lockdowns. I've defended people who continue to use masks.

There's absolutely zero chance this is a good faith argument so I'm not sure why I'm bothering but hey there was a notification so here I am

[Ymx]

Are you saying my argument isn't in good faith? To be fair I don't remember all your posts and you have a pretty narrow view of mine so we'll have to accept we haven't got a clue about what the other person thinks

I think he was replying to me, as I suggested those who wanted to ramp up restrictions again (in the UK), didn’t get their way (didn’t win).

JM thought it was “really fucking stupid” to have relaxed them. And dpedin wanted to, and possibly still wants them back.

[Biffer]

Are you saying my argument isn't in good faith? To be fair I don't remember all your posts and you have a pretty narrow view of mine so we'll have to accept we haven't got a clue about what the other person thinks

I haven't read your argument, but given its you I'm prepared to tend to it not being.

[Ymx]

Are you saying my argument isn't in good faith? To be fair I don't remember all your posts and you have a pretty narrow view of mine so we'll have to accept we haven't got a clue about what the other person thinks

I haven't read your argument, but given its you I'm prepared to tend to it not being.

I think you probably should before commenting then. His cancer treatment was massively compromised over lockdown.

[Biffer]

Are you saying my argument isn't in good faith? To be fair I don't remember all your posts and you have a pretty narrow view of mine so we'll have to accept we haven't got a clue about what the other person thinks

I haven't read your argument, but given its you I'm prepared to tend to it not being.

I think you probably should before commenting then. His cancer treatment was massively compromised over lockdown.

Yeah, right enough, I'm bang out of order there.

Sorry ER2

[mat the expat]

I fundamentally disagree with many of your points. I did then and I do now. I also resented then being made feel like an extremist for thinking letting people die on their own was disgusting. The whole thing got wrapped up in left amd right and culture wars bollox. The scenes in Italy at the start were 100% politically driven yet we trotted along like twats. It really is eye boggingly bad and I suppose it is some small consolation that men and women who were in charge have started admitting they fucked up

I was at risk the whole time from Covid.

I find your arguments completely disingenuous

Stop sounding like an old woman FFS

[C69]

It be would have been wholly possible for scans and diagnostics to have been continued along with COVID restrictions if and it's a big if, systems allowed this.
I still love in a Covid world where people are dying of the virus and full PPE is worn.

We as a world were not ready for the virus and I am not wholly sure we're in a much better position now.
Management of health service systems across borders is appalling

[Grandpa]

Covid restrictions meant I couldn't visit my mother in hospital for more than an hour each day. Slowly she deteriorated to the point we were told she only had days to live... luckily Covid restrictions were lifted when she was moved to her own room (for her last few days) and I then spent every waking hour with her... revived her, got her drinking and eating again... and she was moved back onto the ward... and eventually after a couple of months, we took her home... and a year later she is still with us.

I don't resent the restrictions though as I saw what it was like in hospital while I was there... Covid was still quite rampant, elderly patients on her ward were dying from it... and staff were getting very ill. It just felt like a terrible time... rather than needing to resent anyone. I just hated the virus.

[Biffer]

It be would have been wholly possible for scans and diagnostics to have been continued along with COVID restrictions if and it's a big if, systems allowed this.
I still love in a Covid world where people are dying of the virus and full PPE is worn.

We as a world were not ready for the virus and I am not wholly sure we're in a much better position now.
Management of health service systems across borders is appalling

We know that now. We didn't at the time.

Let's remember it was a coronavirus - the two previous coronaviruses that jumped to humans had fatality rates of 50% & 30%.

Also, there are aspects where we are more ready, such as vaccine development where the aim in the science community is to have a vaccine ready in 100 days for future pandemics (which might mean they don’t become pandemics). It’s politically where there’s a problem.

[dpedin]

It be would have been wholly possible for scans and diagnostics to have been continued along with COVID restrictions if and it's a big if, systems allowed this.
I still love in a Covid world where people are dying of the virus and full PPE is worn.

We as a world were not ready for the virus and I am not wholly sure we're in a much better position now.
Management of health service systems across borders is appalling

This - I was getting scans during 2020 and 2021 because of PE and subsequent lump found on my thymus. I presume it depended on levels of risk and clinical need? I know many radiographers were redeployed into other clinical areas or off with covid so imaging capacity was down significantly.

I was in hospital in early 2022 for an op and spent 12 hours in ICU before going to CC then ward following a sternotomy and it was well organised bedlam. There were immunocompromised patients in ICU in separate rooms getting 1-to-1 care from nurses completely covered in PPE and who were in room for hours at a time. Any supplies or food etc was left outside and they had to collect at the door. Getting PPE on/off took about 10 mins for staff and another to check them - hugely time consuming and drained resources. They came out looking completely knackered and in one case in tears because of the stress and environment they were working in. The protocols the staff had to follow to ensure infection control were huge yet no complaints and no grudges about mask wearing. My ICU nurse had left her kid, she was a single mum, with her parents when she was working her 4 shifts that week as she didnt want to endanger them nor her patients. I have huge respect for all the NHS staff and absolutely none for the armchair critics who constantly moaned like spoiled kids about wearing a simple mask or washing their hands during a pandemic.

[JM2K6]

Are you saying my argument isn't in good faith? To be fair I don't remember all your posts and you have a pretty narrow view of mine so we'll have to accept we haven't got a clue about what the other person thinks

I think he was replying to me, as I suggested those who wanted to ramp up restrictions again (in the UK), didn’t get their way (didn’t win).

JM thought it was “really fucking stupid” to have relaxed them. And dpedin wanted to, and possibly still wants them back.

We did get another wave as a result. Again, what exactly are you arguing here - that my saying relaxing restrictions at that time was fucking stupid was shown to be wrong or that just from an ideological perspective it was an insane angle? I am curious. If I'm being held up as some sort of hardline lockdown fanatic it would be good to know exactly what I'm being accused of.

[Calculon]

There is no question it was serious for a period and knocked out a load of old vulnerable people. Did it warrant the response we got and was sustained? Nah

The world went fucking mental. Performative travel bans, wearing masks outside, not allowing kindergarteners to take of their masks, zero COVID weirdos, China going crazy and on the other side the anti vax nutters. Thank God it's mostly over.

Anecdotal but for my family the (continuing) effects of lockdown have been far, far more serious than the effects of Covid would likely have been

Same with my family. Once all the vulnerable people, mostly olds and fatties, had a chance to be vaccinated, restrictions really should have been lifted

[Biffer]

Huge amount of hindsight here, with people ignoring the situation as it was at the time.

1. It was a novel coronavirus
2. The previous two novel coronaviruses had fatality rates of 50% and 30%
3. This one looked far more infectious than the previous two

If it had a fatality rate of even 5%, alongside what looked at the time as pre symptomatic infection of others, there would have been hundreds of millions dead over three years, rather than the 20 million or so the WHO estimates (and that looks like a conservative figure tbh).

There’s a lot of revisionism which seems to be along the lines of ‘we should have known it would have been like this’ it given the previous evidence of closely related viruses jumping into humans in the previous two decades, that’s frankly utter bullshit.

[Guy Smiley]

The world went fucking mental. Performative travel bans, wearing masks outside, not allowing kindergarteners to take of their masks, zero COVID weirdos, China going crazy and on the other side the anti vax nutters. Thank God it's mostly over.

Anecdotal but for my family the (continuing) effects of lockdown have been far, far more serious than the effects of Covid would likely have been

Same with my family. Once all the vulnerable people, mostly olds and fatties, had a chance to be vaccinated, restrictions really should have been lifted

I've just had my first taste of it... tested positive two weeks ago last Thursday. I'm twice vaxxed and I've had a booster, although that was probably near enough to 6 months back.

I'm still feeling the effects now, after a pretty heavy duty 5 days of feeling fucking shithouse.The first two days, I could barely focus on a laptop screen and basically just dozed my way through in snatches. At this stage I'm suffering symptoms like a heavy cold... nagging cough, runny nose and excessive fatigue. Apparently I'm part of NZ's 4th wave of it with daily numbers suggesting it's running through us again.

Revisionistas who like to bat away the seriousness of the damned thing, like some of you are doing, are just ignoring the effects felt across the wider community. Well done if you escaped with relatively mild symptoms. Count yourselves lucky. My workplace is still struggling to field a full complement and has been for months, with the resulting lack of production threatening the viability of the business. To sit here now and condescendingly scoff that the reaction 3 years ago was too much or that a series of lockdowns and / or mask type restrictions weren't worth it is just fanciful nonsense. Likewise the complaint that the effects of lockdown are more serious than the disease... fucking bullshit. Entitled, self centred bullshit.Go tell the kids why being able to go the shops was more important than keeping nana and pop safe and even though they died at least you didn't have to wear a fucking mask.


yeah, it was a pain in the arse. Widespread disease tends to do that. Suck it up and put it down to experience. We fucking coped. Sometimes that's what you have to do.

[Biffer]

There's that word revisionism again. That implies it wasn't clear early on that this was not as serious as first thought. In good old Italy stats came out within the first few months that this was knocking off vulnerable old people. Not vulnerable people. Vulnerable old people. Why we insisted continuing on the path we did still mystifies me.

There you go, revisionism in a handy paragraph. In the UK in early 2021 we were running at 7000 deaths a week from covid. That's with restrictions in place. Would likely have been a lot more without restrictions. Hardly anyone vaxxed at that point.

There are some genuine debates to be had about restrictions ns, particularly in relation to schools, but this idea that from the first few months it was mild and we should have just carried on is utter revisionist nonsense.

[Ymx]

The fatality rate of it was well pretty well known with respect to when the vaccines were administered to the oldies and fatties.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51674743.amp

24th March 2020

[dpedin]

The fatality rate of it was well pretty well known with respect to when the vaccines were administered to the oldies and fatties.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51674743.amp

24th March 2020

This picture emerged pretty quickly, although an overall 0.5 to 1% IFR is still a pretty horrendous figure regardless of which age group is impacted. Given how transmissible covid was this would have led to huge number of deaths in the UK, some would argue it did?

However what wasn't fully understood clinically at the time was the wider impact covid had on the health of other age groups who didnt die but became very ill, such as the blood clotting effect it had and the rise in cerebral, pulmonary and cardiac clotting. ICUs were by this time full and overflowing with covid patients who didn't die but required high levels of care with surgical theatres and recovery areas converted into ICUs and soaking up all available staff. Many covid patients were in ICU for 5-10 times the usual length of stay for patients requiring ICU tying up ICU beds and meaning other surgical procedures couldn't take place. Also covid patients in ICU required high levels of staff as they needed turning etc regularly and the PPE requirements were very time consuming. As well as staff, 35% absences were common due to covid or shielding, many hospitals ran short of Oxygen and key pharmaceuticals. Only life saving or essential surgery and cancer care was provided during this time depriving many of required care. The lock downs, distancing and public use of PPE helped slow down this huge demand on the NHS and helped it cope, just.

What the public weren't told was that the Nightingale Field Hospitals were essentially set up as 'step down or step out' facilities. They would take in patients who were recovering but also take covid patients who were unlikely to survive with the NHS triaging patients to treat the most likely to survive in existing hospitals where the full range of specialty support was available. The field hospitals were only set up and staffed to provide palliative care for the dying. The scale of these facilities would indicate what many thought was going to be the worst case scenario.

Prior to vaccination the IFR of covid was bad enough. However, focusing just on the death rates is misleading, we need to factor in the impact of the large number of seriously ill covid patients who remained in the system for weeks and months, had on the wider NHS and the health of the population as a whole.

[Tichtheid]

Covid global health emergency is over, WHO says
Published
18 hours ago

Health reporters
The World Health Organization (WHO) has declared that Covid-19 no longer represents a "global health emergency".
The statement represents a major step towards ending the pandemic and comes three years after it first declared its highest level of alert over the virus.
Officials said the virus' death rate had dropped from a peak of more than 100,000 people per week in January 2021 to just over 3,500 on 24 April.
The head of the WHO said at least seven million people died in the pandemic.

But Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said that the true figure was "likely" closer to 20 million deaths - nearly three times the official estimate - and he warned that the virus remained a significant threat.
"Yesterday, the Emergency Committee met for the 15th time and recommended to me that I declare an end to the public health emergency of international concern. I've accepted that advice. It is therefore with great hope that I declare Covid-19 over as a global health emergency," Dr Tedros said.
He added that the decision had been considered carefully for some time and made on the basis of careful analysis of data.
But he warned the removal of the highest level of alert did not mean the danger was over and said the emergency status could be reinstated if the situation changed.

"The worst thing any country can do now is to use this news as a reason to let down its guard, to dismantle the systems it has built, or to send the message to its people that Covid-19 is nothing to worry about," he said.
The World Health Organization first declared Covid-19 to be a public health emergency of international concern (PHEIC) in January 2020.
This signalled the need for coordinated global action to protect people from the new virus.
It will now be up to individual countries to continue to manage Covid in the way they think best.

Vaccines were one of the major turning points in the pandemic. According to the WHO, 13 billion doses have been given, allowing many people to be protected from serious illness and death.
But in many countries vaccines have not reached most of those in need.
More than 765 million confirmed Covid infections have been recorded worldwide.
The US and UK, like many other countries, have already talked about "living with the virus" and wound down many of the tests and social mixing rules.
Dr Mike Ryan, from the WHO's health emergencies programme, said the emergency may have ended, but the threat is still there.
"We fully expect that this virus will continue to transmit and this is the history of pandemics," he said.
"It took decades for the final throes of the pandemic virus of 1918 to disappear.
"In most cases, pandemics truly end when the next pandemic begins."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-65499929

[Ymx]

They are quick off the mark

[Guy Smiley]

They are quick off the mark

Outside your privileged neck of the woods, the threat posed by the virus remained very real for a long time after you'd decided masks were a waste of time...

as various poorly resourced countries struggled to achieve the same levels of protection enjoyed by the wealthy ones that secured vaccine supplies early. Naturally, population density being higher in most of those poorer countries only exacerbated the risk posed by pandemic conditions....

but yeah. Laugh. What's a few deaths in a poor country, eh?

[Ymx]

They are quick off the mark

Outside your privileged neck of the woods, the threat posed by the virus remained very real for a long time after you'd decided masks were a waste of time...

as various poorly resourced countries struggled to achieve the same levels of protection enjoyed by the wealthy ones that secured vaccine supplies early. Naturally, population density being higher in most of those poorer countries only exacerbated the risk posed by pandemic conditions....

but yeah. Laugh. What's a few deaths in a poor country, eh?

Get off your high horse, sanctimonious twat.

[Biffer]

There's that word revisionism again. That implies it wasn't clear early on that this was not as serious as first thought. In good old Italy stats came out within the first few months that this was knocking off vulnerable old people. Not vulnerable people. Vulnerable old people. Why we insisted continuing on the path we did still mystifies me.

There you go, revisionism in a handy paragraph. In the UK in early 2021 we were running at 7000 deaths a week from covid. That's with restrictions in place. Would likely have been a lot more without restrictions. Hardly anyone vaxxed at that point.

There are some genuine debates to be had about restrictions ns, particularly in relation to schools, but this idea that from the first few months it was mild and we should have just carried on is utter revisionist nonsense.

I haven't the energy to properly debate this anymore- that's on me not you. However I will say I am not saying we were in need of no restrictions but rather it was very evident early on it was picking off the oldies and that was about it. You would have stories like about the sister of a friend of mine dying aged 30 and the headline was 'without underlying conditions'. Fact was she was massively over weight and had loads of health issues. Fact also was she worked in a school and rhe unions leveraged her death to keep the schools closed. It was a shit show

Colleague of mne at work, head of electrical engineering at a research centre, early forties, no underlying conditions, played fives every week, not sen him for three years, medically retired.

We all have micro level examples. But micro doesn't align with macro.

[Guy Smiley]

They are quick off the mark

Outside your privileged neck of the woods, the threat posed by the virus remained very real for a long time after you'd decided masks were a waste of time...

as various poorly resourced countries struggled to achieve the same levels of protection enjoyed by the wealthy ones that secured vaccine supplies early. Naturally, population density being higher in most of those poorer countries only exacerbated the risk posed by pandemic conditions....

but yeah. Laugh. What's a few deaths in a poor country, eh?

Get off your high horse, sanctimonious twat.

You're trying to be some sort of edgelord and you're not bringing the wit required to carry it off.

[Ymx]

You’re trying to be a sanctimonious twat, and are rather good at it.

[Ymx]

Speaking of little gems from WHO, do we remember this WHO emergency?

WHO Director-General declares the ongoing monkeypox outbreak a Public Health Emergency of International Concern

23 July 2022 News release Reading time: Less than a minute (51 words)

On July 23, the WHO Director-General declared the escalating global monkeypox outbreak a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC). Currently, the vast majority of reported cases are in the WHO European Region. WHO/Europe remains committed to partnering with countries and communities to address the outbreak with the required urgency.

[JM2K6]

There's that word revisionism again. That implies it wasn't clear early on that this was not as serious as first thought. In good old Italy stats came out within the first few months that this was knocking off vulnerable old people. Not vulnerable people. Vulnerable old people. Why we insisted continuing on the path we did still mystifies me.

There you go, revisionism in a handy paragraph. In the UK in early 2021 we were running at 7000 deaths a week from covid. That's with restrictions in place. Would likely have been a lot more without restrictions. Hardly anyone vaxxed at that point.

There are some genuine debates to be had about restrictions ns, particularly in relation to schools, but this idea that from the first few months it was mild and we should have just carried on is utter revisionist nonsense.

I haven't the energy to properly debate this anymore- that's on me not you. However I will say I am not saying we were in need of no restrictions but rather it was very evident early on it was picking off the oldies and that was about it. You would have stories like about the sister of a friend of mine dying aged 30 and the headline was 'without underlying conditions'. Fact was she was massively over weight and had loads of health issues. Fact also was she worked in a school and rhe unions leveraged her death to keep the schools closed. It was a shit show

Hey quick question do you know how many people in the UK have "underlying conditions" like being overweight/obese or have other health issues?

[JM2K6]

Speaking of little gems from WHO, do we remember this WHO emergency?

WHO Director-General declares the ongoing monkeypox outbreak a Public Health Emergency of International Concern

23 July 2022 News release Reading time: Less than a minute (51 words)

On July 23, the WHO Director-General declared the escalating global monkeypox outbreak a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC). Currently, the vast majority of reported cases are in the WHO European Region. WHO/Europe remains committed to partnering with countries and communities to address the outbreak with the required urgency.

Again, what's being implied here? That monkeypox wasn't a PHEIC? That the WHO was somehow scaremongering as opposed to just doing their job?

[dpedin]

Speaking of little gems from WHO, do we remember this WHO emergency?

WHO Director-General declares the ongoing monkeypox outbreak a Public Health Emergency of International Concern

23 July 2022 News release Reading time: Less than a minute (51 words)

On July 23, the WHO Director-General declared the escalating global monkeypox outbreak a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC). Currently, the vast majority of reported cases are in the WHO European Region. WHO/Europe remains committed to partnering with countries and communities to address the outbreak with the required urgency.

Again, what's being implied here? That monkeypox wasn't a PHEIC? That the WHO was somehow scaremongering as opposed to just doing their job?

He's just trying to be a wind up merchant but without the nous to do it properly, best to ignore.

[JM2K6]

I haven't the energy to properly debate this anymore- that's on me not you. However I will say I am not saying we were in need of no restrictions but rather it was very evident early on it was picking off the oldies and that was about it. You would have stories like about the sister of a friend of mine dying aged 30 and the headline was 'without underlying conditions'. Fact was she was massively over weight and had loads of health issues. Fact also was she worked in a school and rhe unions leveraged her death to keep the schools closed. It was a shit show

Hey quick question do you know how many people in the UK have "underlying conditions" like being overweight/obese or have other health issues?

It hasn't been that deadly to most people in those groups. You are back to the original argument. How much risk do we accept. Its straight forward cost benefit analysis. How many deaths do we accept. The answer used to be x deaths so we wouldn't build that safer road or y deaths so we won't buy that medicine. Covid created a space where the answer was zero deaths and that was and is not sustainable. I knew that.

Traffic accidents aren't contagious and there's no equivalent of waiting for a vaccine. We do however have a shit-ton of restrictions and policies in place to prevent death as much as possible. It's never been a good comparison.

Others have made the point about focusing on deaths vs severe illness as well.

A quarter of a million dead Brits is a very high price to pay. And that's with lockdowns and the other restrictions. I get that you think that older people and/or those with major health issues don't "count" but I fundamentally disagree. "Not deadly to most people" simply does not work at scale, especially when you ignore the large cohort of people who don't die but suffer badly regardless.