Jersey Gone??

[Biffer]

No, I only think that because of all the clubs going bust.

Not up here. Just in Wales and England because they both have an over inflated idea of how important their rugby is.

The desperate Welsh masturbatory fantasy of a British league has been knocking around for thirty years. It’s not going to happen. And if it does, there will be one Welsh team in it after the first five years.

That's an appalling take on the situation.

The Welsh think their clubs somehow deserve the same income as the English clubs, despite having massively less crowds and tv audience. The English think they somehow deserve the same income as the French clubs despite having massively less crowds and tv income. And then they both try to pay the levels of wages of what they aspire to rather than their reality. And then they go bust.

[SaintK]

Not up here. Just in Wales and England because they both have an over inflated idea of how important their rugby is.

The desperate Welsh masturbatory fantasy of a British league has been knocking around for thirty years. It’s not going to happen. And if it does, there will be one Welsh team in it after the first five years.

That's an appalling take on the situation.

The Welsh think their clubs somehow deserve the same income as the English clubs, despite having massively less crowds and tv audience. The English think they somehow deserve the same income as the French clubs despite having massively less crowds and tv income. And then they both try to pay the levels of wages of what they aspire to rather than their reality. And then they go bust.

No shit sherlock!

[inactionman]

Not up here. Just in Wales and England because they both have an over inflated idea of how important their rugby is.

The desperate Welsh masturbatory fantasy of a British league has been knocking around for thirty years. It’s not going to happen. And if it does, there will be one Welsh team in it after the first five years.

That's an appalling take on the situation.

The Welsh think their clubs somehow deserve the same income as the English clubs, despite having massively less crowds and tv audience. The English think they somehow deserve the same income as the French clubs despite having massively less crowds and tv income. And then they both try to pay the levels of wages of what they aspire to rather than their reality. And then they go bust.

I'm not sure where this 'deserve' thing comes from, your take on mindsets really is quite odd.

English rugby suffers from private ownership which has, in many cases, been less than responsible. It's one of the perils of private ownership, as football has demonstrated for the last 30 years.

[PornDog]

No, I only think that because of all the clubs going bust.

Not up here. Just in Wales and England because they both have an over inflated idea of how important their rugby is.

The desperate Welsh masturbatory fantasy of a British league has been knocking around for thirty years. It’s not going to happen. And if it does, there will be one Welsh team in it after the first five years.

That's an appalling take on the situation.

Yes and no - it's an entirely fair accusation to level against the gobshites that run PRL. Obviously much less so for everyone else involved in the game. Besides, I think all of sub international grade rugby is residing in one variety of glass house or another.


I have every bit of sympathy for the Welsh in regard to the identity issues their regions have. Where I have zero respect though is many fans beliefs that if they can just tug on the English forelock again then everything will be okay! It's head in the sand stuff, but where you don't even own the sand you're burying your head in!
There was never any history between Munster and Glasgow, but there is now, and long may the spite continue to fester. Ulster and Edinburgh (maybe its a Saffa thing? ) also have a burgeoning rivalry. Fucking buy into what you have instead of wallowing in your separation anxiety with the English.

I don't know how accurate it is, but certainly there has been criticism of how the WRU is structured, or more importantly how its finances are structured. Apparently they subsidise amateur club players dues and contribute to those clubs day to day running costs. That's fucked up - yes money should be spent on upgrading facilities, coaching and player development (and lots of it), but if that accusation is true then that's just money down the drain. The WRU takes in more money than the IRFU - there is zero reason that the Welsh regions need be as shit as they are.

[Biffer]

Not up here. Just in Wales and England because they both have an over inflated idea of how important their rugby is.

The desperate Welsh masturbatory fantasy of a British league has been knocking around for thirty years. It’s not going to happen. And if it does, there will be one Welsh team in it after the first five years.

That's an appalling take on the situation.

Yes and no - it's an entirely fair accusation to level against the gobshites that run PRL. Obviously much less so for everyone else involved in the game. Besides, I think all of sub international grade rugby is residing in one variety of glass house or another.


I have every bit of sympathy for the Welsh in regard to the identity issues their regions have. Where I have zero respect though is many fans beliefs that if they can just tug on the English forelock again then everything will be okay! It's head in the sand stuff, but where you don't even own the sand you're burying your head in!
There was never any history between Munster and Glasgow, but there is now, and long may the spite continue to fester. Ulster and Edinburgh (maybe its a Saffa thing? ) also have a burgeoning rivalry. Fucking buy into what you have instead of wallowing in your separation anxiety with the English.

I don't know how accurate it is, but certainly there has been criticism of how the WRU is structured, or more importantly how its finances are structured. Apparently they subsidise amateur club players dues and contribute to those clubs day to day running costs. That's fucked up - yes money should be spent on upgrading facilities, coaching and player development (and lots of it), but if that accusation is true then that's just money down the drain. The WRU takes in more money than the IRFU - there is zero reason that the Welsh regions need be as shit as they are.

Some of the stuff I read about the Welsh situation is that the subsidy from the WRU is often needed by clubs to pay their semi pros, and that then pushes up the wages of the fringe players in their pro teams, so their wage bill ends up ridiculously high.

The WRU’s turnover is double the SRU, there’s no way they should be such a shitshow.

[JM2K6]

It would be a sell out, I'm not just talking about English rugby here son.

And I'm telling you once again that bums on seats won't and don't fix the financial problems in the English game, kiddo. I couldn't give a shit what the Dragons need, if a British league doesn't help us why should we bother?

You need to product before you can get decent money, bums on seats in the first step to having a good product.

There's going to a British league, get used to it.

Getting bums on seats has been a given in English rugby for ages. You really have to understand that rugby in Wales is not rugby in England. We are in a period of historic support for premiership rugby and in the last few years we've seen a sea change in how teams are playing, to the benefit of spectators.

None of it changes the financial picture to any significant degree.

[Biffer]

And I'm telling you once again that bums on seats won't and don't fix the financial problems in the English game, kiddo. I couldn't give a shit what the Dragons need, if a British league doesn't help us why should we bother?

You need to product before you can get decent money, bums on seats in the first step to having a good product.

There's going to a British league, get used to it.

Getting bums on seats has been a given in English rugby for ages. You really have to understand that rugby in Wales is not rugby in England. We are in a period of historic support for premiership rugby and in the last few years we've seen a sea change in how teams are playing, to the benefit of spectators.

None of it changes the financial picture to any significant degree.

That's the worst thing about what's happened in England for me - on the pitch it's been in good nick with their own home grown players. Clubs didn't need to go bringing in high value foreign players, but rich wankers at the top wanted the status and publicity.

[JM2K6]

You need to product before you can get decent money, bums on seats in the first step to having a good product.

There's going to a British league, get used to it.

Getting bums on seats has been a given in English rugby for ages. You really have to understand that rugby in Wales is not rugby in England. We are in a period of historic support for premiership rugby and in the last few years we've seen a sea change in how teams are playing, to the benefit of spectators.

None of it changes the financial picture to any significant degree.

That's the worst thing about what's happened in England for me - on the pitch it's been in good nick with their own home grown players. Clubs didn't need to go bringing in high value foreign players, but rich wankers at the top wanted the status and publicity.

Not sure that's the problem, honestly. Yes, there's some high profile high value overseas players, but also a large number of domestic players on big money.

[sockwithaticket]

Years of having a salary cap set far too high and paying over the market value for Prem level tightheads as well as massive salaries to England Internationals who barely featured is definitely a bigger issue for club finances than foreign players.

[David in Gwent]

And I'm telling you once again that bums on seats won't and don't fix the financial problems in the English game, kiddo. I couldn't give a shit what the Dragons need, if a British league doesn't help us why should we bother?

You need to product before you can get decent money, bums on seats in the first step to having a good product.

There's going to a British league, get used to it.

Getting bums on seats has been a given in English rugby for ages. You really have to understand that rugby in Wales is not rugby in England. We are in a period of historic support for premiership rugby and in the last few years we've seen a sea change in how teams are playing, to the benefit of spectators.

None of it changes the financial picture to any significant degree.

Really? Despite recent English records in the European cups and at International level.

You go and organise the deck chairs and I'll dig my out clarinet for you to play.

[JM2K6]

You need to product before you can get decent money, bums on seats in the first step to having a good product.

There's going to a British league, get used to it.

Getting bums on seats has been a given in English rugby for ages. You really have to understand that rugby in Wales is not rugby in England. We are in a period of historic support for premiership rugby and in the last few years we've seen a sea change in how teams are playing, to the benefit of spectators.

None of it changes the financial picture to any significant degree.

Really? Despite recent English records in the European cups and at International level.

You go and organise the deck chairs and I'll dig my out clarinet for you to play.

Yes. Really. And let's not forget that in the last decade, we've had multiple Champions cup winners, a record equalling international winning streak, a grand slam, and a world cup final. It's not all been doom and gloom on the pitch.

You really have to make a little effort to understand what's going on in English rugby rather than just blithely assuming it's the same story as in Wales. It really isn't. You're pretty ignorant of the realities of professional rugby in England and it makes your argument a farce.

[David in Gwent]

A decade is a long time, a decade ago the demise of 3 pro clubs would have been almost unthinkable.

Rugby needs to be sustainable, it just isn't in it's current form, actually, professional rugby isn't actually viable at the moment.

Every side that started the EP this year made a loss in 22/23.

[JM2K6]

A decade is a long time, a decade ago the demise of 3 pro clubs would have been almost unthinkable.

Rugby needs to be sustainable, it just isn't in it's current form, actually, professional rugby isn't actually viable at the moment.

Every side that started the EP this year made a loss in 22/23.

It's not "a decade ago", it's within the last decade, as in over the last ten years. Some of what I am talking about is just a few years ago. But if you want to talk about a decade ago, well that's when wasps nearly went bust the first time. Before that, London Welsh went belly up. It's not a new problem.

And no shit clubs are making a loss, that has been true for almost the entire lifetime of the league. One of the biggest factors in that is the wages being paid. A raised salary cap allowed some English clubs to succeed in Europe but fatally wounded the league's financial security. European success cannot be experienced by every club, does not provide financial security, and doesn't guarantee a huge jump in crowds either.

Adding the welsh sides will diminish our domestic competition, will do little to improve the popularity of the product for any side that isn't regularly selling out already, and won't affect any of the core problems with thesport in England. None of the financial issues in the Prem are tied to lack of spectators or a poor product, both areas that have improved massively over time. And Christ only knows how any of this is supposed to prevent a club like Jersey Reds going bust.

I beg you, please spend some time trying to get your head around the fact that England is not Wales. The problems facing the English clubs are not particularly hard to understand so it's baffling that you repeatedly fail to grasp what's going on.

[David in Gwent]

You've conflated my argument with Wales. Wales has been fucked for a long time.

[JM2K6]

If you don't think the problem in Wales is a poor product with lack of Euro success and no spectators, why on earth are you trying to make out it's the problem in England? I assumed that's what you believed because it's the only way your insistence that this is the way forward for English club rugby makes any sense.

[Biffer]

The idea some Welsh fans have that the English league would want them, and it would be in some way beneficial for the English clubs, is one of the most consistent pieces of delusion through the history of professional rugby.

[David in Gwent]

The idea some Welsh fans have that the English league would want them, and it would be in some way beneficial for the English clubs, is one of the most consistent pieces of delusion through the history of professional rugby.

It's not about being wanted, it's about the survival of the pro game in the UK.

There is no reason, given the figures posted by the English clubs, that 3 more could go bust next year.

[Biffer]

The idea some Welsh fans have that the English league would want them, and it would be in some way beneficial for the English clubs, is one of the most consistent pieces of delusion through the history of professional rugby.

It's not about being wanted, it's about the survival of the pro game in the UK.

There is no reason, given the figures posted by the English clubs, that 3 more could go bust next year.

How is spreading what money they have out with the Welsh clubs going to help in any way?

[David in Gwent]

The idea some Welsh fans have that the English league would want them, and it would be in some way beneficial for the English clubs, is one of the most consistent pieces of delusion through the history of professional rugby.

It's not about being wanted, it's about the survival of the pro game in the UK.

There is no reason, given the figures posted by the English clubs, that 3 more could go bust next year.

How is spreading what money they have out with the Welsh clubs going to help in any way?

Jesus. Go right back to my first post. We need to create more broadcast money, it's the only way.

[JM2K6]

It would do nothing to change that.

[sockwithaticket]

It's not about being wanted, it's about the survival of the pro game in the UK.

There is no reason, given the figures posted by the English clubs, that 3 more could go bust next year.

How is spreading what money they have out with the Welsh clubs going to help in any way?

Jesus. Go right back to my first post. We need to create more broadcast money, it's the only way.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The stumbling block is insisting that having the Welsh regions join the English clubs in a competition would be the way to generate it.

[David in Gwent]

How is spreading what money they have out with the Welsh clubs going to help in any way?

Jesus. Go right back to my first post. We need to create more broadcast money, it's the only way.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The stumbling block is insisting that having the Welsh regions join the English clubs in a competition would be the way to generate it.

What's your bright idea then? Every 10 minutes remove a player?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

How is spreading what money they have out with the Welsh clubs going to help in any way?

Jesus. Go right back to my first post. We need to create more broadcast money, it's the only way.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The stumbling block is insisting that having the Welsh regions join the English clubs in a competition would be the way to generate it.

I sort of disagree.

In that it doesn't matter what the TV revenues are if the clubs proceed to spend the money badly. I get the point they're living a champagne lifestyle on a lemonade income, but if we increase the funding they'd likely live a Krug lifestyle on a basic champagne income.

So the first step is to have them spend whatever they can actually afford. And then whilst there are going to be issues around stopping a flow of players to France it would give a more sustainable base

[David in Gwent]

Jesus. Go right back to my first post. We need to create more broadcast money, it's the only way.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The stumbling block is insisting that having the Welsh regions join the English clubs in a competition would be the way to generate it.

I sort of disagree.

In that it doesn't matter what the TV revenues are if the clubs proceed to spend the money badly. I get the point they're living a champagne lifestyle on a lemonade income, but if we increase the funding they'd likely live a Krug lifestyle on a basic champagne income.

So the first step is to have them spend whatever they can actually afford. And then whilst there are going to be issues around stopping a flow of players to France it would give a more sustainable base

I think every Pro club in England and Wales ran at a rather large loss last year so they can't actually afford anything. It's so unsustainable it's ridiculous.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The stumbling block is insisting that having the Welsh regions join the English clubs in a competition would be the way to generate it.

I sort of disagree.

In that it doesn't matter what the TV revenues are if the clubs proceed to spend the money badly. I get the point they're living a champagne lifestyle on a lemonade income, but if we increase the funding they'd likely live a Krug lifestyle on a basic champagne income.

So the first step is to have them spend whatever they can actually afford. And then whilst there are going to be issues around stopping a flow of players to France it would give a more sustainable base

I think every Pro club in England and Wales ran at a rather large loss last year so they can't actually afford anything. It's so unsustainable it's ridiculous.

Not fussed about the clubs or whatever they call them now in Wales, live, die, it's entirely up to them. Just piss off and leave us alone.

In England, well there is some money in the game, but like any business they simply cannot spend so much revenue on wages. So as is wages need to come down, and that's just tough for those involved. If a lot of people go off and do other things because the money drops then fair enough.

[JM2K6]

I sort of disagree.

In that it doesn't matter what the TV revenues are if the clubs proceed to spend the money badly. I get the point they're living a champagne lifestyle on a lemonade income, but if we increase the funding they'd likely live a Krug lifestyle on a basic champagne income.

So the first step is to have them spend whatever they can actually afford. And then whilst there are going to be issues around stopping a flow of players to France it would give a more sustainable base

I think every Pro club in England and Wales ran at a rather large loss last year so they can't actually afford anything. It's so unsustainable it's ridiculous.

Not fussed about the clubs or whatever they call them now in Wales, live, die, it's entirely up to them. Just piss off and leave us alone.

In England, well there is some money in the game, but like any business they simply cannot spend so much revenue on wages. So as is wages need to come down, and that's just tough for those involved. If a lot of people go off and do other things because the money drops then fair enough.

Yup.

The broadcast rights are not going to significantly improve no matter how much euro success there is. The wages are a huge problem.

[Biffer]

It's not about being wanted, it's about the survival of the pro game in the UK.

There is no reason, given the figures posted by the English clubs, that 3 more could go bust next year.

How is spreading what money they have out with the Welsh clubs going to help in any way?

Jesus. Go right back to my first post. We need to create more broadcast money, it's the only way.

A British league won’t do that.

[David in Gwent]

How is spreading what money they have out with the Welsh clubs going to help in any way?

Jesus. Go right back to my first post. We need to create more broadcast money, it's the only way.

A British league won’t do that.

What is going to cause more people to tune in on a Friday night: Leicester v Scarlets, both full strength, under the lights - or Leicester v Sale - there is so much more marketing available for cross border clashes, fuck it, you could even start to go down the wrestingling route and make up story lines. That's last bit isn't serious.

Face facts, you've got 10 teams in your league. There could only be 8 by the start of next season given the losses posted.

There is no product and if there is no product there is no TV money, it really is as simple as that. Fuck me, I bet the National League (English DIv 5 Soccer) got more people watching the Dorking v Barnet game last night than an EP fixture would get kicking off at the same time.

[sockwithaticket]

Biffer's a Scot.

Jesus. Go right back to my first post. We need to create more broadcast money, it's the only way.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The stumbling block is insisting that having the Welsh regions join the English clubs in a competition would be the way to generate it.

What's your bright idea then? Every 10 minutes remove a player?

Well, first the availability of Prem games in the country the Premiership actually takes place needs to be sorted the fuck out. The broadcast deal will be valued at least partially on the basis of who currently tunes in and how many subscriptions seems to be driven by Premiership rugby. Get yourself a VPN and a sub to the Aussie or Yank broadcasters and you have access to all the games each week.

Domestically, however, we have this stupid model where TNT (the channel formerly known as BT) only broadcast half the games per week and with how unevenly those games are divvied up among the clubs a good third to half of the fans in the league may as well not bother subscribing for all that they'd actually be able to watch their team. Premiership rugby offering the games not broadcast works for those who don't have a subscription, but it's a bit of bloody cheek for those who do have a sub and still need to pay extra to watch their team any given week. All the games need to be available on the same platform every week. That would be the starting point.

From there the age old question has been how do you get people interested in rugby? It's one that everyone's struggling with. The base problem would seem to be that people don't like the sport, not that they don't like the match ups on offer. Ergo, crossing the Severn for a few games will make fuck all difference.

[David in Gwent]

Biffer's a Scot.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The stumbling block is insisting that having the Welsh regions join the English clubs in a competition would be the way to generate it.

What's your bright idea then? Every 10 minutes remove a player?

Well, first the availability of Prem games in the country the Premiership actually takes place needs to be sorted the fuck out. The broadcast deal will be valued at least partially on the basis of who currently tunes in and how many subscriptions seems to be driven by Premiership rugby. Get yourself a VPN and a sub to the Aussie or Yank broadcasters and you have access to all the games each week.

Domestically, however, we have this stupid model where TNT (the channel formerly known as BT) only broadcast half the games per week and with how unevenly those games are divvied up among the clubs a good third to half of the fans in the league may as well not bother subscribing for all that they'd actually be able to watch their team. Premiership rugby offering the games not broadcast works for those who don't have a subscription, but it's a bit of bloody cheek for those who do have a sub and still need to pay extra to watch their team any given week. All the games need to be available on the same platform every week. That would be the starting point.

From there the age old question has been how do you get people interested in rugby? It's one that everyone's struggling with. The base problem would seem to be that people don't like the sport, not that they don't like the match ups on offer. Ergo, crossing the Severn for a few games will make fuck all difference.

The odd time I've managed to catch an EP game on TV I've pretty much enjoyed the standard of Rugby on display, it's almost always better than our fare, however, it's stale, the whole product is stale (ours is an 8 day old loaf of Hovis left in the garage) The truth of the matter is that it is dying.

My whole point is that it's given a shake up, given some actual original marketing and given some life.

Look, at the end of the day, I'm still happy to and watch my club with my mates and I don't actually give a fuck if there is 500 or 50,000 of us (the latter would mean queuing, so fuck that) and I suspect a lot of people in Saesland feel the same way because that's actually what it's all about, a day with your friends or loved ones, the result is almost of secondary importance.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

If we were going to do a cross border deal the only one it'd make sense with from our point of view is France. Like us they've kept their clubs, and like is they've a larger number, and there'd actually be some money in it for us. But I don't know anyone who'd want it, and I don't see any reason they'd want to give up their league as is either, really it'd be a worse deal for them than us given their league already raises good money

If we did lose 2 more clubs, well that's some pros some cons. I'm more than happy to see how a 10 team league plays out, but from an England (and European) point of view there are gains for us in an 8 team league that might prove enticing. 14-16 games in the domestic league, European games and then England games, all good stuff. We would need some much stricter rules around the % of EQP mind

[David in Gwent]

is France.

Bob and Envelope.

[Slick]

Don’t know if anyone has mentioned it already, but there was a really poignant piece in the Times yesterday focussing on the changes in the town and individuals after the Worcester collapse, very sad.

[inactionman]

Don’t know if anyone has mentioned it already, but there was a really poignant piece in the Times yesterday focussing on the changes in the town and individuals after the Worcester collapse, very sad.

That's the tragedy of all this.

It's OK to say we can only support x number of fully professional top tier teams, it should in no way mean that those teams who can't quite cut it should completely disappear out of existence.

We can't have this free-market survival of fittest nonsense that seem to be infecting sports - compete for the biggest prizes or die trying.

[JM2K6]

Jesus. Go right back to my first post. We need to create more broadcast money, it's the only way.

A British league won’t do that.

What is going to cause more people to tune in on a Friday night: Leicester v Scarlets, both full strength, under the lights - or Leicester v Sale - there is so much more marketing available for cross border clashes, fuck it, you could even start to go down the wrestingling route and make up story lines. That's last bit isn't serious.

Face facts, you've got 10 teams in your league. There could only be 8 by the start of next season given the losses posted.

There is no product and if there is no product there is no TV money, it really is as simple as that. Fuck me, I bet the National League (English DIv 5 Soccer) got more people watching the Dorking v Barnet game last night than an EP fixture would get kicking off at the same time.

From an English perspective? Leicester v Sale.

Making it Leicester v Scarlets at best retains the same interest.

And yes, English football is far more popular than English rugby. Not understanding why that is the case is not helping your argument here.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Don’t know if anyone has mentioned it already, but there was a really poignant piece in the Times yesterday focussing on the changes in the town and individuals after the Worcester collapse, very sad.

That's the tragedy of all this.

It's OK to say we can only support x number of fully professional top tier teams, it should in no way mean that those teams who can't quite cut it should completely disappear out of existence.

We can't have this free-market survival of fittest nonsense that seem to be infecting sports - compete for the biggest prizes or die trying.

Yet the free reign is what the clubs wanted and to compete is somewhat in the nature of sport. So any steps to correct in this area will come with a bun fight largely led by the clubs those wanting change would be wanting to 'help'. It's a mess, but, an interesting one

[Biffer]

The idea of generating more money through a new league is nonsense

England league with France? No more Heineken Cup money, doubt as much as that would be raised.

British league? Scotland and Wales won’t bring in additional tv money

British and Irish league? Heineken Cup would go here as well.

It’s a specifically Welsh masturbatory fantasy that’s bullshit to everyone else, but because they have an over inflated sense of their rugby importance, they won’t let go of it.

[Sandstorm]

The idea of generating more money through a new league is nonsense

England league with France? No more Heineken Cup money, doubt as much as that would be raised.

British league? Scotland and Wales won’t bring in additional tv money

British and Irish league? Heineken Cup would go here as well.

It’s a specifically Welsh masturbatory fantasy that’s bullshit to everyone else, but because they have an over inflated sense of their rugby importance, they won’t let go of it.

Rugby held back by English Blazers and Welsh Tracksuits.

[David in Gwent]

The idea of generating more money through a new league is nonsense

England league with France? No more Heineken Cup money, doubt as much as that would be raised.

British league? Scotland and Wales won’t bring in additional tv money

British and Irish league? Heineken Cup would go here as well.

It’s a specifically Welsh masturbatory fantasy that’s bullshit to everyone else, but because they have an over inflated sense of their rugby importance, they won’t let go of it.

You do realise that it's only me suggesting this and not "Welsh Rugby" FFS, grow up.

[inactionman]

Don’t know if anyone has mentioned it already, but there was a really poignant piece in the Times yesterday focussing on the changes in the town and individuals after the Worcester collapse, very sad.

That's the tragedy of all this.

It's OK to say we can only support x number of fully professional top tier teams, it should in no way mean that those teams who can't quite cut it should completely disappear out of existence.

We can't have this free-market survival of fittest nonsense that seem to be infecting sports - compete for the biggest prizes or die trying.

Yet the free reign is what the clubs wanted and to compete is somewhat in the nature of sport. So any steps to correct in this area will come with a bun fight largely led by the clubs those wanting change would be wanting to 'help'. It's a mess, but, an interesting one

It's a fair point.

I'm not sure all the clubs want to be paying unaffordable salaries just to retain their playing squads, which is where we currently find ourselves, but it's within the gift of the clubs and leagues to regulate this. Quite where the clubs need to get a grip, where the PRL as a body step up and quite where the RFU fit into this remains to be decided (although we all know they'll do the square root of SFA).

It's part of being in a league, there are standards and regulations, and surely - above all else at a commercial level - it needs to be structured to avoid bankrupting the smaller teams. Even if you're chasing European glory, surely you can understand it's all for nothing if the domestic league collapses.

As an aside, I always felt queasy with Rugby League's 'million pound game' where there was essentially a playoff for promotion and relegation (it's a bit more complicated but that's the general gist) - knowing that a relegated team would shed pretty much all their staff as their funding would all but disappear overnight. That should never, ever be an outcome of losing a match. We're arguably in an even worse state, where clubs within the top flight (and playing good rugby, in LI's case) go out of business.