"It's all part of the system" as Farrell flaps high and misses or cedes ground, yet "he's a defensive liability" when Ford makes his tackle yet gets pushed backwards in the process...Brazil wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:21 am"He can't tackle" is the default criticism of all creative players by England fans who are determined that yeomanlike metronomy and a big boot are the apex characteristics of a world class ten. We're unlucky in that we have a head coach who believes the data shows that there is no room for flair in the international game (or at least not until 78 minutes into a semi final when you're desperately chasing the game), so it just compounds those excuses.Margin__Walker wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:16 am It's really odd.
May's very good defensively at least these days, albeit he's gone now. Defending the outside channels is hard though and Daly and Steward have frequently been turned inside out. Steward especially has looked incredibly frail defensively. His 6N performance against France comes to mind as something worse than I've ever seen from Arundell. Sure, there's improvement to be had, but It just seems like an easy way for people to dismiss Arundell and he does seem to be held to a higher standard than others.
Edit: it also means that there's a double standard when the supposed defensive stalwarts have absolute howlers. I remember Charlie Hodgson chasing a player down after a monstrous defensive fuck up by Tindall, which got studiously ignored.
The Official English Rugby Thread
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See also: Manu charging out of the line to shoulder charge somebody, fucking it up colossally, and leaving the outside backs hanging.sockwithaticket wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:37 am"It's all part of the system" as Farrell flaps high and misses or cedes ground, yet "he's a defensive liability" when Ford makes his tackle yet gets pushed backwards in the process...Brazil wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:21 am"He can't tackle" is the default criticism of all creative players by England fans who are determined that yeomanlike metronomy and a big boot are the apex characteristics of a world class ten. We're unlucky in that we have a head coach who believes the data shows that there is no room for flair in the international game (or at least not until 78 minutes into a semi final when you're desperately chasing the game), so it just compounds those excuses.Margin__Walker wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:16 am It's really odd.
May's very good defensively at least these days, albeit he's gone now. Defending the outside channels is hard though and Daly and Steward have frequently been turned inside out. Steward especially has looked incredibly frail defensively. His 6N performance against France comes to mind as something worse than I've ever seen from Arundell. Sure, there's improvement to be had, but It just seems like an easy way for people to dismiss Arundell and he does seem to be held to a higher standard than others.
Edit: it also means that there's a double standard when the supposed defensive stalwarts have absolute howlers. I remember Charlie Hodgson chasing a player down after a monstrous defensive fuck up by Tindall, which got studiously ignored.
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There's also the 'survivor fallacy' of defence. If you are too slow to be anywhere near a player making a break, you mostly get a free pass whereas the fast folk who at least get there, then can't make a tackle get marked down.Tichtheid wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:26 am I think in general wingers get a tough time about defence, I saw Kolbe get sat on his arse by Chris Harris in the Lions series, LRZ is, to use the technical term, shite defensively, we have nightmares about Big Duhan and his positioning
This was supposed to happen, when the game went pro the defence was the first thing to sort out and we took on League-style lines, over time the attacking tactics have become more sophisticated and more difficult to deal with. "He's very strong defensively" is often a euphemism for not being Penaud in attack.
Personally, I'd pick Arundell, improve the defensive system the best you can, but use his skills in attack, he's a rare talent.
I'd like a stat of 'nowhere near the tackle when they should have been' to balance this out

It can also be a bit like lineouts where there are so many moving parts that can go wrong but the Hooker always gets the blame. There are very few blatantly missed tackles in international rugby but the guy who is screwed by other parts of the defensive system not working gets the blame.Tichtheid wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:26 am I think in general wingers get a tough time about defence, I saw Kolbe get sat on his arse by Chris Harris in the Lions series, LRZ is, to use the technical term, shite defensively, we have nightmares about Big Duhan and his positioning
This was supposed to happen, when the game went pro the defence was the first thing to sort out and we took on League-style lines, over time the attacking tactics have become more sophisticated and more difficult to deal with. "He's very strong defensively" is often a euphemism for not being Penaud in attack.
Personally, I'd pick Arundell, improve the defensive system the best you can, but use his skills in attack, he's a rare talent.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.duke wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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In his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.Slick wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 amI really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.duke wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.
That cleanout is up there with the scrummaging technique for cackhandednessinactionman wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 amIn his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.Slick wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 amI really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.duke wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.
And even if they did they weren't getting a passinactionman wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 amIn his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.Slick wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 amI really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.duke wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
I think that's the incident Finn was trying to get the Ref to review.duke wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
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Nowell and Steward sweating nervously at the prospect...Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:55 pmThere's also the 'survivor fallacy' of defence. If you are too slow to be anywhere near a player making a break, you mostly get a free pass whereas the fast folk who at least get there, then can't make a tackle get marked down.Tichtheid wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:26 am I think in general wingers get a tough time about defence, I saw Kolbe get sat on his arse by Chris Harris in the Lions series, LRZ is, to use the technical term, shite defensively, we have nightmares about Big Duhan and his positioning
This was supposed to happen, when the game went pro the defence was the first thing to sort out and we took on League-style lines, over time the attacking tactics have become more sophisticated and more difficult to deal with. "He's very strong defensively" is often a euphemism for not being Penaud in attack.
Personally, I'd pick Arundell, improve the defensive system the best you can, but use his skills in attack, he's a rare talent.
I'd like a stat of 'nowhere near the tackle when they should have been' to balance this out![]()
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For as long as I can remember England have been crap at supporting bog standard, straight line breaks. May's mazy runs are just too much for our players to compute.inactionman wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 amIn his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.Slick wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 amI really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.duke wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.
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TMO/Ref completely asleep at the wheel on that one.Simian wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:09 amI think that's the incident Finn was trying to get the Ref to review.duke wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
You've got players complaining to ref about the clean out and a bloke on the floor getting treatment for a head injury and you don't bother to look at what caused it.
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If someone showed you footage of Olivier Merle doing that you'd think yep, that's about right
Defo red card for me!Margin__Walker wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:33 amTMO/Ref completely asleep at the wheel on that one.Simian wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:09 amI think that's the incident Finn was trying to get the Ref to review.duke wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
You've got players complaining to ref about the clean out and a bloke on the floor getting treatment for a head injury and you don't bother to look at what caused it.
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For sure. A bad one too for me. Will no doubt end up mid range, because you seem to have to kill someone to get into the next bracket, but it was very reckless/dangerous.dpedin wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:03 amDefo red card for me!Margin__Walker wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:33 amTMO/Ref completely asleep at the wheel on that one.Simian wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:09 am
I think that's the incident Finn was trying to get the Ref to review.
You've got players complaining to ref about the clean out and a bloke on the floor getting treatment for a head injury and you don't bother to look at what caused it.
inactionman wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 amIn his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.Slick wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 amI really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.duke wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:43 am Looks like Jonny May’s in strife for this clean out on Ollie Lawrence
https://x.com/rugbycollective/status/1 ... xXnhCiOf8A
The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.
He was known on another bored as Jonny Sideways
Did another one against Bath last Friday night. FRom one touchline to the other and made minus 10 metersTichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:25 aminactionman wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 amIn his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.Slick wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 am
I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.
The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.
He was known on another bored as Jonny Sideways

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Indeed, it seems if someone makes a break everyone else stands around either shocked or offering applause at this amazing new tactic.sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:12 amFor as long as I can remember England have been crap at supporting bog standard, straight line breaks.inactionman wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:52 amIn his prime hew was a very elusive and deceptively strong runner.Slick wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:46 am
I really like May as a person and as a personality in the game, but he is comically fucking useless at just about everything except running fast. In fairness, he got pretty good at catching a high ball as well.
The only problem is he went sidewards as much as forwards and his supporting players had no clue where he'd end up.
3 games ban for May down to 2 if he attends tackle school! As expected!Margin__Walker wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:14 amFor sure. A bad one too for me. Will no doubt end up mid range, because you seem to have to kill someone to get into the next bracket, but it was very reckless/dangerous.dpedin wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:03 amDefo red card for me!Margin__Walker wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:33 am
TMO/Ref completely asleep at the wheel on that one.
You've got players complaining to ref about the clean out and a bloke on the floor getting treatment for a head injury and you don't bother to look at what caused it.

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Lawrence having a great opening quarter in the Bath - Bris game.
Yep looking very goodsockwithaticket wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:10 pm Lawrence having a great opening quarter in the Bath - Bris game.
Enjoyable match so far given the weather
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Shows what a difference mindset can have. Both teams want to play.SaintK wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:48 pmYep looking very goodsockwithaticket wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:10 pm Lawrence having a great opening quarter in the Bath - Bris game.
Enjoyable match so far given the weather
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He's fallen off massively. It was only a couple of seasons ago that he looked good enough to maybe get a run with England.
Sorry to disrupt the flow, but a thing popped up on my TikTok today that was a compilation of Marler over the top cheering at kinda random things while playing saracens and I now really like him
Edit: and it reminded me of the time he squirted water in Haskel’s face
Edit: and it reminded me of the time he squirted water in Haskel’s face
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Exeter apparently. A day late due to an admin error.Slick wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:23 pm I see rumours on social media of another club not paying wages on time
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Given each club's start to the season, I'm pretty disappointed in Saints so far.
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That's much better. Good to do while a man down, too.
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Another magnificent Karl Dickson decision costs Saints a try.
JP Doyle was cut for this muppet.
JP Doyle was cut for this muppet.
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Saracens getting penalised or marched 10 for screaming at the officials is becoming too common an occurence. Need to do more to stamp it out.