Kicking off in Israel

[Ymx]

You support Britain First or agree with their sentiments?

I wasn’t saying either. I was just posting that video of the peaceful protestors so others can make their own assessment.

Peaceful protests…

[C69]

You support Britain First or agree with their sentiments?

I wasn’t saying either. I was just posting that video of the peaceful protestors so others can make their own assessment.

Peaceful protests…

I would suggest if you post videos from racist and fascists and neo-nazi groups then you are a fucking nut job.
Do you know what Britain First stand for?

[Ymx]

You support Britain First or agree with their sentiments?

I wasn’t saying either. I was just posting that video of the peaceful protestors so others can make their own assessment.

Peaceful protests…

I would suggest if you post videos from racist and fascists and neo-nazi groups then you are a fucking nut job.
Do you know what Britain First stand for?

I did it as a poke to TH.

Although I’d suggest the video is real enough, irrespective of who recorded and posted it.

That was the main point.

What did you think of the video ?

[Tichtheid]

I wasn’t saying either. I was just posting that video of the peaceful protestors so others can make their own assessment.

Peaceful protests…

I would suggest if you post videos from racist and fascists and neo-nazi groups then you are a fucking nut job.
Do you know what Britain First stand for?

I did it as a poke to TH.

What are you, four feet three tall or something?

So many whooshes (that was just so the first part didn't go over your head)

[petej]

I managed to find this video, and it’s posted by Britain First.

Peaceful protestors.



“Hamas is my brother “

Extremist thick twats can find other extremist thick twats and post it on a social media site that normal people now mostly avoid due to it being dominated by extremist thick twats that algorithms on it promote content posted by extremist thick twats. With a population of 70million odd even if extremist thick twats are 1% of the population that is still 700,000 people.

[C69]

I wasn’t saying either. I was just posting that video of the peaceful protestors so others can make their own assessment.

Peaceful protests…

I would suggest if you post videos from racist and fascists and neo-nazi groups then you are a fucking nut job.
Do you know what Britain First stand for?

I did it as a poke to TH.

Although I’d suggest the video is real enough, irrespective of who recorded and posted it.

That was the main point.

What did you think of the video ?

So let me get this right, you have no issue in posting videos from this organisation. Is that correct?
And you will continue to do so.
My own personal view point is Hamas and the IDF are brutal killers who should be eradicated.

[Ymx]

I meant what do you think about guys like him in protests around European cities?

Putting all trolling aside …

You think the IDF should be eradicated? Do you think the IDF are deliberately trying to kill civilians?

I don’t. I think they have an extremely difficult job to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas dressing and attacking dressed as civilians. Hamas embedding themselves. Palestinian people hiding Hamas and weapons, cheering them on. Hamas sending volumes of fake atrocities, silicone dolls, dead people who blink, fake blood. I mean, Mr fafo. And I see many lapping it up.

It’s been called a genocide as a norm now. The lie repeated so many times that people don’t even get pulled up on it anymore.

The numbers being published are from Hamas. They don’t recognise Hamas deaths.

So that’s what I think.

[Calculon]

If the IDF is eradicated it means the end of Israel and Jews being ethnically cleansed from the Middle East. A repeat of October 7th, without the Israelis being able to defend themselves, and until none of them are left. C69 is fully aware of that

[C T]

I meant what do you think about guys like him in protests around European cities?

Putting all trolling aside …

You think the IDF should be eradicated? Do you think the IDF are deliberately trying to kill civilians?

I don’t. I think they have an extremely difficult job to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas dressing and attacking dressed as civilians. Hamas embedding themselves. Palestinian people hiding Hamas and weapons, cheering them on. Hamas sending volumes of fake atrocities, silicone dolls, dead people who blink, fake blood. I mean, Mr fafo. And I see many lapping it up.

It’s been called a genocide as a norm now. The lie repeated so many times that people don’t even get pulled up on it anymore.

The numbers being published are from Hamas. They don’t recognise Hamas deaths.

So that’s what I think.

OK. If we are seeking to have an honest discussion, I'll provide my views. Sinking feeling as I type that I'm falling into a trap.

Hamas may be terrorists to us, however they do have support from a fair amount of Palestinians. I accept I'm no expert, but Israel have to take some responsibility for this. Prior to the 7th of Oct they've been doing some stuff that at best could be considered unkind, surely driving support to Hamas?

In terms of civilian deaths, I think the IDF are trying to do the bare minimum to keep on the right side of their important allies, and they're failing at that.

Hamas are horrendous, they can't hide amongst civilians and scream about genocide when civilians die. However, and I might be being a bit flippant here, but I'm pretty sure all the women and children that are dying aren't Hamas.

So in summary I've got very mixed views on this.

Israel can't pretend that this only started on the 7th of Oct, Hamas can't pretend that their tactics are not causing civilian deaths.

Further to this I can't shake the feeling that the IDF are using a much more scattergun approach than is needed, safe in the knowledge that they can just say it's Hamas' fault.

I'm starting to find myself thinking that both sides deserve each other.

Not sure we should be trusting numbers coming from either side though.

[Tilly Orifice]

I meant what do you think about guys like him in protests around European cities?

Putting all trolling aside …

You think the IDF should be eradicated? Do you think the IDF are deliberately trying to kill civilians?

I don’t. I think they have an extremely difficult job to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas dressing and attacking dressed as civilians. Hamas embedding themselves. Palestinian people hiding Hamas and weapons, cheering them on. Hamas sending volumes of fake atrocities, silicone dolls, dead people who blink, fake blood. I mean, Mr fafo. And I see many lapping it up.

It’s been called a genocide as a norm now. The lie repeated so many times that people don’t even get pulled up on it anymore.

The numbers being published are from Hamas. They don’t recognise Hamas deaths.

So that’s what I think.

OK. If we are seeking to have an honest discussion, I'll provide my views. Sinking feeling as I type that I'm falling into a trap.

Hamas may be terrorists to us, however they do have support from a fair amount of Palestinians. I accept I'm no expert, but Israel have to take some responsibility for this. Prior to the 7th of Oct they've been doing some stuff that at best could be considered unkind, surely driving support to Hamas?

In terms of civilian deaths, I think the IDF are trying to do the bare minimum to keep on the right side of their important allies, and they're failing at that.

Hamas are horrendous, they can't hide amongst civilians and scream about genocide when civilians die. However, and I might be being a bit flippant here, but I'm pretty sure all the women and children that are dying aren't Hamas.

So in summary I've got very mixed views on this.

Israel can't pretend that this only started on the 7th of Oct, Hamas can't pretend that their tactics are not causing civilian deaths.

Further to this I can't shake the feeling that the IDF are using a much more scattergun approach than is needed, safe in the knowledge that they can just say it's Hamas' fault.

I'm starting to find myself thinking that both sides deserve each other.

Not sure we should be trusting numbers coming from either side though.

There's a lot of decency in this post, though I cant say it's exactly how I'd choose to sum up a situation in which an imprisoned and brutalised population are now being killed in the tens of thousands by the army of the occupying power.

[Sandstorm]

Further to this I can't shake the feeling that the IDF are using a much more scattergun approach than is needed, safe in the knowledge that they can just say it's Hamas' fault.

Be interesting for someone knowledgeable to rate the current generation of IDF soldiers against previous ones. Are the current crop of kids with guns as well-trained and battle hardened as their older brothers and sisters? Are they more trigger-happy, etc? Are more civilians dying as a result?

[petej]

I meant what do you think about guys like him in protests around European cities?

Putting all trolling aside …

You think the IDF should be eradicated? Do you think the IDF are deliberately trying to kill civilians?

I don’t. I think they have an extremely difficult job to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas dressing and attacking dressed as civilians. Hamas embedding themselves. Palestinian people hiding Hamas and weapons, cheering them on. Hamas sending volumes of fake atrocities, silicone dolls, dead people who blink, fake blood. I mean, Mr fafo. And I see many lapping it up.

It’s been called a genocide as a norm now. The lie repeated so many times that people don’t even get pulled up on it anymore.

The numbers being published are from Hamas. They don’t recognise Hamas deaths.

So that’s what I think.

It is a tiny number of people protesting and they are allowed to protest.

It is a millenia old conflict and unfortunately and many people on both sides will be dragged into it. It is very sad and depressing and there is no obvious solution when you look at the region and see the leadership and role of religion

[C69]

If the IDF is eradicated it means the end of Israel and Jews being ethnically cleansed from the Middle East. A repeat of October 7th, without the Israelis being able to defend themselves, and until none of them are left. C69 is fully aware of that

Rubbish, it is a toxic racist genocidal institutonally racist organisation.
It needs to be scrapped and reconstructed and built up again as a normal army without it's political and racist agenda.

[Ymx]

I meant what do you think about guys like him in protests around European cities?

Putting all trolling aside …

You think the IDF should be eradicated? Do you think the IDF are deliberately trying to kill civilians?

I don’t. I think they have an extremely difficult job to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas dressing and attacking dressed as civilians. Hamas embedding themselves. Palestinian people hiding Hamas and weapons, cheering them on. Hamas sending volumes of fake atrocities, silicone dolls, dead people who blink, fake blood. I mean, Mr fafo. And I see many lapping it up.

It’s been called a genocide as a norm now. The lie repeated so many times that people don’t even get pulled up on it anymore.

The numbers being published are from Hamas. They don’t recognise Hamas deaths.

So that’s what I think.

OK. If we are seeking to have an honest discussion, I'll provide my views. Sinking feeling as I type that I'm falling into a trap.

Hamas may be terrorists to us, however they do have support from a fair amount of Palestinians. I accept I'm no expert, but Israel have to take some responsibility for this. Prior to the 7th of Oct they've been doing some stuff that at best could be considered unkind, surely driving support to Hamas?

In terms of civilian deaths, I think the IDF are trying to do the bare minimum to keep on the right side of their important allies, and they're failing at that.

Hamas are horrendous, they can't hide amongst civilians and scream about genocide when civilians die. However, and I might be being a bit flippant here, but I'm pretty sure all the women and children that are dying aren't Hamas.

So in summary I've got very mixed views on this.

Israel can't pretend that this only started on the 7th of Oct, Hamas can't pretend that their tactics are not causing civilian deaths.

Further to this I can't shake the feeling that the IDF are using a much more scattergun approach than is needed, safe in the knowledge that they can just say it's Hamas' fault.

I'm starting to find myself thinking that both sides deserve each other.

Not sure we should be trusting numbers coming from either side though.

Actually, I’m pleased you posted. We could do with more open posts like this

I kind of agree with pretty much all of it.

I don’t think they are doing minimal however, as it’s extremely difficult- and made that way deliberately. The ratio of civilians to combatants is actually low for a conflict, so it’s not statistically suggesting this either. As soon as they err, it is leapt upon, with slatherings of cursing as being devils. As soon as it’s clarified as not being as bad as made out, the world has moved on, damage done.

Bibi will have to go once this conflict is over. There is no way anyone will negotiate with him afterwards. But I think he’s had to do what he’s doing, and has to see it through until Hamas no longer control any of Gaza and have been liquidated.

[Uncle fester]

I meant what do you think about guys like him in protests around European cities?

Putting all trolling aside …

You think the IDF should be eradicated? Do you think the IDF are deliberately trying to kill civilians?

I don’t. I think they have an extremely difficult job to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas dressing and attacking dressed as civilians. Hamas embedding themselves. Palestinian people hiding Hamas and weapons, cheering them on. Hamas sending volumes of fake atrocities, silicone dolls, dead people who blink, fake blood. I mean, Mr fafo. And I see many lapping it up.

It’s been called a genocide as a norm now. The lie repeated so many times that people don’t even get pulled up on it anymore.

The numbers being published are from Hamas. They don’t recognise Hamas deaths.

So that’s what I think.

It is a tiny number of people protesting and they are allowed to protest.

It is a millenia old conflict and unfortunately and many people on both sides will be dragged into it. It is very sad and depressing and there is no obvious solution when you look at the region and see the leadership and role of religion

This iteration of it isn't.
Zionism is a relatively new concept in historical terms and this is the root cause of the conflict as settlers come in and push the previous occupants into smaller and smaller parcels of land.

[C69]

The well known anti Semite Chuck Schumer stated earlier today that Israel is becoming a pariah state and calls for an election in Israel.

[Sandstorm]

The well known anti Semite Chuck Schumer stated earlier today that Israel is becoming a pariah state and calls for an election in Israel.

Are Israelis marching in the streets calling for a cease-fire? Is there evidence that a different Cabinet will withdraw their troops?

[Guy Smiley]

The well known anti Semite Chuck Schumer stated earlier today that Israel is becoming a pariah state and calls for an election in Israel.

Are Israelis marching in the streets calling for a cease-fire? Is there evidence that a different Cabinet will withdraw their troops?

There have been several protests, one ongoing. The narrative being so tightly controlled, you don’t hear about the dissenting views but there is no shortage of them.

Any election is impossible to predict… Israel’s politics complex but Bibi isn’t popular and still has the shadow of corruption charges hanging over him.

[Ymx]

Look at the way sky have framed this, where there are two conflicting sources.

One Hamas (headlines), the other IDF in small with the word false quoted.

Hamas only mentioned as the source the second time.

Immediately after the IDF statement, it throws in a paragraph to discredit it.

[C69]

Look at the way sky have framed this, where there are two conflicting sources.

One Hamas (headlines), the other IDF in small with the word false quoted.

Hamas only mentioned as the source the second time.

Immediately after the IDF statement, it throws in a paragraph to discredit it.

The IDF claim everything is false when civilians are killed
Hamas and the IDF sources should be treated with some scepticism.
N

[Tichtheid]

Look at the way sky have framed this, where there are two conflicting sources.

One Hamas (headlines), the other IDF in small with the word false quoted.

Hamas only mentioned as the source the second time.

Immediately after the IDF statement, it throws in a paragraph to discredit it.

The IDF claim everything is false when civilians are killed
Hamas and the IDF sources should be treated with some scepticism.
N

There was an item on itv news half an hour ago that made me turn the channel to Radio 3. They had a Palestinian bloke on whose sister and seven children had been killed when a bomb destroyed their house, this was in December and their bodies are still lying under the rubble. The youngest was a month old.
The itv host asked, “How does that make you feel?”

That’s when I switched over.

He was there to raise awareness on the issue of temporary visas for displaced Palestinians who have family in the UK, just until the war is over.

[Ymx]

Look at the way sky have framed this, where there are two conflicting sources.

One Hamas (headlines), the other IDF in small with the word false quoted.

Hamas only mentioned as the source the second time.

Immediately after the IDF statement, it throws in a paragraph to discredit it.

The IDF claim everything is false when civilians are killed
Hamas and the IDF sources should be treated with some scepticism.
N

That might be the case, but look at the way it’s already been framed by sky.

[Uncle fester]

If Sky are "leaning left", there are two options.

1. Palestinians have "won" the propaganda war.
Or
2. Israeli behaviour is so reprehensible that even Murdoch owned media can't excuse it anymore.

[Uncle fester]

The well known anti Semite Chuck Schumer stated earlier today that Israel is becoming a pariah state and calls for an election in Israel.

Are Israelis marching in the streets calling for a cease-fire? Is there evidence that a different Cabinet will withdraw their troops?

I'll take this one. We're subjected to a barrage of propaganda followed by bullying if we dare stray from the thought that Israel is perfectly entitled to be carrying on this way.

But it's another level within Israel. They might have a fractured political system but when it comes to awareness of what is being done to Palestinians in their name, they veer between ignorance and excuses. Everything is either Palestinians or somebody else's fault. Israel is never to blame.
Their entire values system is warped. They know the Haredi are fücking weird and present a long term danger to Israel but they refuse to countenance that these lunatics are at fault in any way when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Settlers is trickier. I think there's a broad awareness that they are taking land that belongs to others but there's loads of excuses about that. The most common one is that Israel is doing "great things" with that land while "Palestinians were not using it properly".

Last summer, myself and my team had to sit in our control room and pretend to be amused while young-ish Israelis regaled us with their tales of harassing Palestinian women on their military service.
Meanwhile old man Fabian, who actually served in a real war stayed very quiet. I'd love to have a pint with Fabian, the others not so much.

[SaintK]

If Sky are "leaning left", there are two options.

1. Palestinians have "won" the propaganda war.
Or
2. Israeli behaviour is so reprehensible that even Murdoch owned media can't excuse it anymore.

Poimt of order! Comcast own Sky Media not the Aussie/American cunt.

[Uncle fester]

Noted.

Also with Israeli domestic media, their coverage is very different to what we get. Civilian casualties are downplayed. Any coverage showing Palestinians focuses on combatants or potential combatants, i.e. no women and children. IDF spokespersons feature VERY heavily.

[Jockaline]

Noted.

Also with Israeli domestic media, their coverage is very different to what we get. Civilian casualties are downplayed. Any coverage showing Palestinians focuses on combatants or potential combatants, i.e. no women and children. IDF spokespersons feature VERY heavily.

They have access to International media too though I presume. There is not real excuse for not really knowing what's going on. Ignorance is as an excuse isn't credible therefore.

[Uncle fester]

Noted.

Also with Israeli domestic media, their coverage is very different to what we get. Civilian casualties are downplayed. Any coverage showing Palestinians focuses on combatants or potential combatants, i.e. no women and children. IDF spokespersons feature VERY heavily.

They have access to International media too though I presume. There is not real excuse for not really knowing what's going on. Ignorance is as an excuse isn't credible therefore.

Easy to dismiss it as anti you-know-what or with a generous sprinkling of whataboutery.

[Ymx]

In reference to the article above

[Slick]

An Israeli Government spokesman? Ahh yeah, that clears it up.

[C69]

The state of Khan Younis after the surgical strikes of Israel.
Not targetting civilians or civilian areas at all

[Slick]

The state of Khan Younis after the surgical strikes of Israel.
Not targetting civilians or civilian areas at all

Jesus. What's the source for that

[C69]

The state of Khan Younis after the surgical strikes of Israel.
Not targetting civilians or civilian areas at all

Jesus. What's the source for that

Haaretz

[Hugo]

The state of Khan Younis after the surgical strikes of Israel.
Not targetting civilians or civilian areas at all

Beyond the human lives lost it is incredibly sad to think of all the damage done to the architecture and buildings and such that have been around forever and that gave the place its character.

Thinking back to where I grew up and the places that have the most sentimental value to me I can't imagine if the Church all my family got married in, grandparents house, my primary school etc. (all of which are within a quarter of a mile) was bombed off the map. All those memories consigned to rubble. That's another layer of oppression in itself - destroying things that meant so much to people.

[Calculon]

I thought Gaza was supposed to have been a concentration camp

[Tichtheid]

I thought Gaza was supposed to have been a concentration camp

Did you find those posts where I defended Hamas?

Always ready to defend Hamas, aren’t you.

So presumably you've found at least one post or sentence - I'm not asking for the "always" that you said there, just the one.

Normally I wouldn't do this, but since disinformation has become a subplot of this thread, I think it's worth pursuing.

[C69]

I thought Gaza was supposed to have been a concentration camp

You are pretty stupid tbh if you thought that.
I suspect it's been said a couple of times on here but it's not really a common opinion.

[Ymx]

I thought Gaza was supposed to have been a concentration camp

You are pretty stupid tbh if you thought that.
I suspect it's been said a couple of times on here but it's not really a common opinion.

Indeed

What was this "music festival for peace held near the Gaza border fence"?

Unless they had actively engaged Palestinian representatives, it just looks like Israeli settlers partying outside the doors of an open air prison.

Yup

Open air prison was the phrase.

[Ymx]

Some firm criticism of BBC Verify impartiality









Originally

https://x.com/cameraorguk?s=21

[Ymx]

And as a surprise to absolutely no one here, someone reviewed the Gaza ministry of health numbers.

No one believed the number and the ratio of women and children here anyway … I’m pretty sure.

This could be the devastating proof that Hamas is faking its death figures
But too many won’t believe anything other than that Israel is deliberately targeting women and children
JAKE WALLIS SIMONS
16 March 2024 • 9:00pm
Jake Wallis Simons

2334
One of the marks of anti-Semitism, George Orwell observed in 1945, is “an ability to believe stories that could not possibly be true”. Which brings us smartly to Hamas and how the broadcast media, aid organisations, international bodies and world leaders take its disinformation as gospel. Last week it became clear that this gullibility may have led to a crime against reality.

A new analysis of the group’s casualty statistics indicates that the rag-tag terror army may have pulled off one of the biggest propaganda coups of modern times. The figures, repeated by everyone from the White House to the BBC, are freighted with familiarity: 30,000 dead in Gaza, 70 per cent of whom are women and children. Yet it now seems overwhelmingly likely that these statistics are fabricated.

Professor Abraham Wyner, a data scientist at the University of Pennsylvania, has conducted a thorough analysis. He found that Hamas’s official civilian death toll was statistically impossible. “Most likely, the Hamas ministry settled on a daily total arbitrarily,” he wrote in an incendiary essay in Tablet. “We know this because the daily totals increase too consistently to be real. Then they assigned about 70 per cent of the total to be women and children, splitting that amount randomly from day to day. Then they in-filled the number of men as set by the predetermined total. This explains all the data observed.”

The giveaways were many. For example, the reported death toll mounted “with almost metronomical linearity”, Prof Wyner found, showing little daily variation. Obviously, this bore no resemblance to any plausible version of reality. Then there was the fact that, according to Hamas data from 29 October, 26 men came back to life; and the fact that on several days, no men were apparently killed at all, but only women. Were we really supposed to believe any of this?

In February, Hamas admitted to losing 6,000 of its fighters, representing more than 20 per cent of the total casualties reported. Given its claims that 70 per cent of the dead were women and children, there were two possible conclusions: either almost no male civilians had died, or almost all the men in Gaza were fighting for Hamas. Both were obviously absurd.

Therefore, the number of women and children killed was likely grossly exaggerated. If that is the case – if, as Prof Wyner suggests, “the casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters” – where does that leave western outrage? Has the West fallen victim to a monstrous con?

The true ratio of civilian casualties to combatants is likely to be exceptionally low, “at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1”. This, Prof Wyner says, is a “successful effort to prevent unnecessary loss of life while fighting an implacable enemy that protects itself with civilians”.

By rights, if the central pillar of the anti-Israel edifice has been discredited, the whole structure should come tumbling down. But don’t hold your breath. The reason why Hamas’s dodgy data is so easily believed is confirmation bias. The drip-drip of Israelophobic propaganda over the years has created a powerful tendency to view the Jewish state, Britain’s democratic ally, as a colonialist aggressor and the Palestinians – even as they butcher children – as the “freedom fighters”. Regardless of the evidence, to many people this has become second nature.

It speaks of millennia of inherited anti-Semitism. A 2012 study by economists Nico Voigtländer and Hans-Joachim Voth found that Germans from towns where Jews were blamed for the Black Death and burnt alive in the 14th century were significantly more likely to vote for the Nazis 600 years later. In his 1945 essay, Orwell recalls a “young intellectual, communist or near-communist” remarking: “No, I do not like Jews. I’ve never made any secret of that. I can’t stick them. Mind you, I’m not anti-Semitic, of course.” Depressingly little has changed.

That is the advantage enjoyed by the jihadis of Gaza. They didn’t even need to keep their strategy a secret. Everyone knows they try to get civilians killed for propaganda gains, aiming to curtail Israeli operations with international outrage. Everyone knows that their censors keep dead terrorists away from the cameras, giving the world the impression that Israel is only attacking civilians (look up former AP reporter Matti Friedman’s seminal 2014 essay, “What the media gets wrong about Israel”, for a sense of how long such games have been played). A gang that murdered and mutilated babies may also, on occasion, be tempted to lie. So much should be obvious. But all this is smoothly eclipsed when a greater narrative is at work.

It’s not that there is a lack of journalistic curiosity in large parts of the media. It’s just that, when it comes to Israel, facts are subordinated to assumptions. In February, BBC Verify quoted a World Health Organisation official: The [Hamas] ministry has “‘good capacity in data collection’ and its previous reporting has been credible and ‘well developed’”. This was the same WHO that had singled out Israel for condemnation at an international assembly largely devoted to Covid. And this was the same BBC Verify that had partly based a story on an eyewitness who had reportedly worked for an Iranian state news outlet and celebrated the deaths of Jews on social media.

It is time for us to say: J’Accuse. Just as Emile Zola laid the charge of anti-Semitism at the feet of the French establishment during the Dreyfus Affair in 1898, we must do so to the international establishment today.