The Official English Rugby Thread

[Kawazaki]

One could look at that late Saints score and simply consider it's a two man tackle that doesn't stop the ball getting offloaded, and so you'd want a word with two players wasting resources in defence, addressing that which you can control. Or you could blame the ref.

Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you wet your face

The double tackle did stop the ball being legally offloaded.

[Kawazaki]

Luke Pearce RIP

It was pretty clear from the discussions between Pearce and the TMO that Pearce thought it was forward and was looking to the TMO to provide him with enough evidence to overturn the on-field award of a try. But the TMO kept insisting that the pass and try was fine. When Pearce kept questioning him, the most he would say was that, after looking at all the angles, there was nothing conclusive to overturn the decision. Pearce even apologised to Itoje when explaining why he couldn't overturn the decision.

So your ire should be reserved for the TMO.

Having said that, Saracens had benefitted from forward passes earlier in the match that were missed by the ref and TMO, most notably when Daly's pass to Gonzalez travelled about 10 metres forward before Gonzalez caught it and scored, so these things even out in the end.

Daly passed the ball at least 15m out the back of his hands whilst running at full tilt. It would defy the laws of physics of it didn't travel forward relative to where it was released from.

And it was about a 3m difference, not 10m.

This explaining momentum rule is getting tiresome.

[Brazil]

It cancelled out the very obvious penalty try for a tackle in the air that Pearce weirdly talked himself out of earlier. That and giving saracens extraordinary latitude in the ruck on the line, and all of the forward passes that were missed in previous tries. Pearce had a bad day at the office all over the shop, but mercifully it all balanced out and the right team won.

[Kawazaki]

It cancelled out the very obvious penalty try for a tackle in the air that Pearce weirdly talked himself out of earlier. That and giving saracens extraordinary latitude in the ruck on the line, and all of the forward passes that were missed in previous tries. Pearce had a bad day at the office all over the shop, but mercifully it all balanced out and the right team won.

It wasn't a penalty try. Goode would still have pushed him out had he waited the 0.3 seconds for Dingwall to fall the extra 15cm. And there was literally no Saints player within 30m of Dingwall when he passed it back.

[Lady P]

Jesus Christ I can’t believe Toga is still on about this

[Kawazaki]

Jesus Christ I can’t believe Toga is still on about this

All I did was post up the most egregious forward pass that was dismissed as fine by a referee and TMO that you'll likely ever see.



Pearce and whoever the twat in the van was have set a very high tariff for incompetence.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

One could look at that late Saints score and simply consider it's a two man tackle that doesn't stop the ball getting offloaded, and so you'd want a word with two players wasting resources in defence, addressing that which you can control. Or you could blame the ref.

Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you wet your face

The double tackle did stop the ball being legally offloaded.

Turns out it needed to stop it, and it didn't. So agin you could tell Daly not to make an ineffectual tackle assist, Earl doesn't need his help and Daly doesn't stop the offload, and Daly could then tackle the carrier, or one could look at the system Sarries use in defence which clearly has benefits but here one gets the downside of Tompkins having run himself out of the game (granted no system is without issue) so he too isn't there to make a tackle, and he could have been.

So you're left with addressing your own actions, or trying to foist blame on someone else because you don't want to take responsibility for your own efforts. And it should be clear which is the path to take because ref blaming in this fashion is just a toddler tantrum

[Kawazaki]

One could look at that late Saints score and simply consider it's a two man tackle that doesn't stop the ball getting offloaded, and so you'd want a word with two players wasting resources in defence, addressing that which you can control. Or you could blame the ref.

Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you wet your face

The double tackle did stop the ball being legally offloaded.

Turns out it needed to stop it, and it didn't. So agin you could tell Daly not to make an ineffectual tackle assist, Earl doesn't need his help and Daly doesn't stop the offload, and Daly could then tackle the carrier, or one could look at the system Sarries use in defence which clearly has benefits but here one gets the downside of Tompkins having run himself out of the game (granted no system is without issue) so he too isn't there to make a tackle, and he could have been.

So you're left with addressing your own actions, or trying to foist blame on someone else because you don't want to take responsibility for your own efforts. And it should be clear which is the path to take because ref blaming in this fashion is just a toddler tantrum

What a load of bollocks.



It was a ref fuck up. Call it what it is.

[ASMO]

The double tackle did stop the ball being legally offloaded.

Turns out it needed to stop it, and it didn't. So agin you could tell Daly not to make an ineffectual tackle assist, Earl doesn't need his help and Daly doesn't stop the offload, and Daly could then tackle the carrier, or one could look at the system Sarries use in defence which clearly has benefits but here one gets the downside of Tompkins having run himself out of the game (granted no system is without issue) so he too isn't there to make a tackle, and he could have been.

So you're left with addressing your own actions, or trying to foist blame on someone else because you don't want to take responsibility for your own efforts. And it should be clear which is the path to take because ref blaming in this fashion is just a toddler tantrum

What a load of bollocks.



It was a ref fuck up. Call it what it is.

And how many ref fuckups has Saracens benefited from throughout the season, it evens itself out over the course of time, its done just move on.

[Kawazaki]

Turns out it needed to stop it, and it didn't. So agin you could tell Daly not to make an ineffectual tackle assist, Earl doesn't need his help and Daly doesn't stop the offload, and Daly could then tackle the carrier, or one could look at the system Sarries use in defence which clearly has benefits but here one gets the downside of Tompkins having run himself out of the game (granted no system is without issue) so he too isn't there to make a tackle, and he could have been.

So you're left with addressing your own actions, or trying to foist blame on someone else because you don't want to take responsibility for your own efforts. And it should be clear which is the path to take because ref blaming in this fashion is just a toddler tantrum

What a load of bollocks.



It was a ref fuck up. Call it what it is.

And how many ref fuckups has Saracens benefited from throughout the season, it evens itself out over the course of time, its done just move on.

I don't mind referee mistakes. Mistakes happen. And they do generally even out. This was something else entirely. It's not marginal and it wasn't unseen. The referee and the TMO looked at this...




... and said it wasn't forward.

You hate Saracens, I get it, but it's a bullshit decision that could happen to your team next.

[Paddington Bear]

It probably is more honest to just say ‘I hate Saracens and I’m glad they lost’ than justify what was a horrific decision that has had a major impact on the playoff race (and left Sarries with no time to come back in that game). Particularly so given some of the people most vehement about ‘these things just happen’ can be found slating refs who went against their side within a couple of pages of this discussion in this thread.

Sarries losing at Newcastle with a decent side out (and being pasted to an extent beyond what the scoreline suggests) is the primary reason we probably won’t make the playoffs, doesn’t mean that we can’t criticise England’s top ref and a TMO for a very clear fuck up that’s well beyond a 50/50.

Nothing to be done about it now though.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

if they had no time left perhaps they cold have used the previous 15+ games more sensibly.

when you leave the game open to the fickleness of fate it's your fault you're not winning, and even in that moment they eschewed multiple chances to just make the tackle themselves, so please sort your own house before casting stones. also, I rather hope no one 'hates' Saracens. okay for some there's a lack of respect for the prolonged deliberate widespread cheating to undermine the competition Sarries enacted and called 'special', but that really shouldn't give rise to hate, derision sure, but not hate.

[Kawazaki]

It probably is more honest to just say ‘I hate Saracens and I’m glad they lost’ than justify what was a horrific decision that has had a major impact on the playoff race (and left Sarries with no time to come back in that game). Particularly so given some of the people most vehement about ‘these things just happen’ can be found slating refs who went against their side within a couple of pages of this discussion in this thread.

Sarries losing at Newcastle with a decent side out (and being pasted to an extent beyond what the scoreline suggests) is the primary reason we probably won’t make the playoffs, doesn’t mean that we can’t criticise England’s top ref and a TMO for a very clear fuck up that’s well beyond a 50/50.

Nothing to be done about it now though.

Agreed on Newcastle and the home loss to Quins which was even worse. Add in this Pearce ego-crime and there's 12-15pts right there which puts Saracens comfortably in second place.

I still find it difficult to comprehend how this Dingwall offload was simply glossed over by Pearce and ignored despite it being spotted and reviewed. The usual mouth breathers will scoff, point and laugh because it's against Saracens but it raises serious concerns about the probity of both officials.

[Paddington Bear]

if they had no time left perhaps they cold have used the previous 15+ games more sensibly.

when you leave the game open to the fickleness of fate it's your fault you're not winning, and even in that moment they eschewed multiple chances to just make the tackle themselves, so please sort your own house before casting stones. also, I rather hope no one 'hates' Saracens. okay for some there's a lack of respect for the prolonged deliberate widespread cheating to undermine the competition Sarries enacted and called 'special', but that really shouldn't give rise to hate, derision sure, but not hate.

Sarries’ previous form is addressed what a couple of lines below the point you’re addressing. I don’t think any Sarries fan would pretend we’ve been anything but inconsistent and sure, relying on beating Northampton and Bath to make the playoffs is hardly a percentage play. Toga has also addressed this in his posts about Sarries’ season for a fair while.

Doesn’t alter it being an awful decision that changed the result, and I don’t think there’s a poster here who would let that slide without comment had it been their team. let’s not pretend otherwise or pretend that Sarries fans don’t have a legitimate grievance, even if it is also fair to question how we gave up the lead in the first place. It isn’t casting stones so much as pointing out the obvious. Things do even themselves out over time, doesn’t mean they don’t sting at the time.

I’ve outlined my thoughts on Saracens and the salary cap plenty of times so can’t see any reason to rehash the past.

[SaintK]

Alex Goode announces his retirement at the end of the season
400 games as a one club man and not nearly enough England caps

I wonder if he will replace Kevin Sorrell in the coaching line up after he suddenly announced he was moving on after 30 years as a player and coach

[Rhubarb & Custard]

if they had no time left perhaps they cold have used the previous 15+ games more sensibly.

when you leave the game open to the fickleness of fate it's your fault you're not winning, and even in that moment they eschewed multiple chances to just make the tackle themselves, so please sort your own house before casting stones. also, I rather hope no one 'hates' Saracens. okay for some there's a lack of respect for the prolonged deliberate widespread cheating to undermine the competition Sarries enacted and called 'special', but that really shouldn't give rise to hate, derision sure, but not hate.

Sarries’ previous form is addressed what a couple of lines below the point you’re addressing. I don’t think any Sarries fan would pretend we’ve been anything but inconsistent and sure, relying on beating Northampton and Bath to make the playoffs is hardly a percentage play. Toga has also addressed this in his posts about Sarries’ season for a fair while.

Doesn’t alter it being an awful decision that changed the result, and I don’t think there’s a poster here who would let that slide without comment had it been their team. let’s not pretend otherwise or pretend that Sarries fans don’t have a legitimate grievance, even if it is also fair to question how we gave up the lead in the first place. It isn’t casting stones so much as pointing out the obvious. Things do even themselves out over time, doesn’t mean they don’t sting at the time.

I’ve outlined my thoughts on Saracens and the salary cap plenty of times so can’t see any reason to rehash the past.

Ignoring that Sarries had actions they could have taken that would have negated the ref's action does continue to seem toddleresque whining. And that's hardly a Sarries thing, or a Sarries fan thing, it's just some people need to grow up. One can include the ref's failings sure, but to single it out above one's own players, that's going too far.

If someone truly has a system to negate any and all misses by the officials fine, else they're simply part of the game. And some people do seem to get that, there's barely a ripple from Saints fans about Furbank being kicked unconscious, an incident a referee could easily have seen another way.

And no, there's no need to rehash the salary cap, but the club should be reminded on consistent basis just what brazen cheats they were, partly it's funny, partly it does colour the trophies they were allowed to keep.

[Kawazaki]

Alex Goode announces his retirement at the end of the season
400 games as a one club man and not nearly enough England caps

I wonder if he will replace Kevin Sorrell in the coaching line up after he suddenly announced he was moving on after 30 years as a player and coach

Reports that Farrell is returning to the Premiership next season. I can see him returning to Saracens as a player/coach which gives Saracens salary options. It is also likely that the transfer fee R92 paid is in installments so I reckon they'd just cancel the balance if he returned to Saracens which makes it easier for them to afford him.

[Kawazaki]

if they had no time left perhaps they cold have used the previous 15+ games more sensibly.

when you leave the game open to the fickleness of fate it's your fault you're not winning, and even in that moment they eschewed multiple chances to just make the tackle themselves, so please sort your own house before casting stones. also, I rather hope no one 'hates' Saracens. okay for some there's a lack of respect for the prolonged deliberate widespread cheating to undermine the competition Sarries enacted and called 'special', but that really shouldn't give rise to hate, derision sure, but not hate.

Sarries’ previous form is addressed what a couple of lines below the point you’re addressing. I don’t think any Sarries fan would pretend we’ve been anything but inconsistent and sure, relying on beating Northampton and Bath to make the playoffs is hardly a percentage play. Toga has also addressed this in his posts about Sarries’ season for a fair while.

Doesn’t alter it being an awful decision that changed the result, and I don’t think there’s a poster here who would let that slide without comment had it been their team. let’s not pretend otherwise or pretend that Sarries fans don’t have a legitimate grievance, even if it is also fair to question how we gave up the lead in the first place. It isn’t casting stones so much as pointing out the obvious. Things do even themselves out over time, doesn’t mean they don’t sting at the time.

I’ve outlined my thoughts on Saracens and the salary cap plenty of times so can’t see any reason to rehash the past.

Ignoring that Sarries had actions they could have taken that would have negated the ref's action does continue to seem toddleresque whining. And that's hardly a Sarries thing, or a Sarries fan thing, it's just some people need to grow up. One can include the ref's failings sure, but to single it out above one's own players, that's going too far.

If someone truly has a system to negate any and all misses by the officials fine, else they're simply part of the game. And some people do seem to get that, there's barely a ripple from Saints fans about Furbank being kicked unconscious, an incident a referee could easily have seen another way.

And no, there's no need to rehash the salary cap, but the club should be reminded on consistent basis just what brazen cheats they were, partly it's funny, partly it does colour the trophies they were allowed to keep.

Just cut & paste if you are going to repeat your bollocks.

[Kawazaki]

Alex Goode announces his retirement at the end of the season
400 games as a one club man and not nearly enough England caps

Criminally ignored by England. A modern day Barry John in the way he played.

[sockwithaticket]

Alex Goode announces his retirement at the end of the season
400 games as a one club man and not nearly enough England caps

I wonder if he will replace Kevin Sorrell in the coaching line up after he suddenly announced he was moving on after 30 years as a player and coach

I dunno about not enough England caps, but he's been an amazing servant for Sarries.

[SaintK]

Alex Goode announces his retirement at the end of the season
400 games as a one club man and not nearly enough England caps

I wonder if he will replace Kevin Sorrell in the coaching line up after he suddenly announced he was moving on after 30 years as a player and coach

Reports that Farrell is returning to the Premiership next season. I can see him returning to Saracens as a player/coach which gives Saracens salary options. It is also likely that the transfer fee R92 paid is in installments so I reckon they'd just cancel the balance if he returned to Saracens which makes it easier for them to afford him.

Reports are also saying that Tigers have made an offer though tbh I just can't see him there
The cynic in me reckons that Sorrell's contract was not renewed with a view to Goode stepping into the vacancy though perhaps that has been left open for Farrell now?

[sockwithaticket]

Dan Cole has also announced his retirement.

Hell of an innings and must have one of the highest minutes played : appearances ratios of any prop.

[SaintK]

It probably is more honest to just say ‘I hate Saracens and I’m glad they lost’ than justify what was a horrific decision that has had a major impact on the playoff race (and left Sarries with no time to come back in that game). Particularly so given some of the people most vehement about ‘these things just happen’ can be found slating refs who went against their side within a couple of pages of this discussion in this thread.

Sarries losing at Newcastle with a decent side out (and being pasted to an extent beyond what the scoreline suggests) is the primary reason we probably won’t make the playoffs, doesn’t mean that we can’t criticise England’s top ref and a TMO for a very clear fuck up that’s well beyond a 50/50.

Nothing to be done about it now though.

Agreed on Newcastle and the home loss to Quins which was even worse. Add in this Pearce ego-crime and there's 12-15pts right there which puts Saracens comfortably in second place.

I still find it difficult to comprehend how this Dingwall offload was simply glossed over by Pearce and ignored despite it being spotted and reviewed. The usual mouth breathers will scoff, point and laugh because it's against Saracens but it raises serious concerns about the probity of both officials.

My mate was in at Sarries today
Apparently they have received a formal apology from the RFU referees dept about the Dingwall pass not being given