NPR

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:13 pm Dingwall at 12?

Or is he usually a 13?

notfatcat wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:09 pm

dpedin wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:03 pm

I like neeps wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:57 am Yet again Marcus Smith fails to live up the hype. Farrell should play 10.

Problem has been having Smith and Farrell on the pitch at the same time. I would let Smith play 10 and give him a proper 12 outside. Too many cooks ...

England defence has been awful coupled with complete lack of imagination in their back play. Going back to the Vunipolas is a big mistake, they are both pretty one dimensional now, they might be the big bully boys in the league but they're not good enough now at international level.

We don't have a proper 12. I think we should either play Smith with a 12 who's actually a 12, or play Ford and Farrell. I think the latter is preferable.

England just looked clueless. At least Ludlum brought a bit of dog and Arundell a slice of magic.

sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:14 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:09 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:06 pm

Some people legitimately think Farrell should be 10

Why not? It's his best position.

The win rate with him at 10 and Ford at 10 is starkly different, it's statistical confirmation of what's seemed apparent when watching him down the years - can't get us firing. Now, some of that is England generally being crap all too often, but I don't think sticking him at 10 solves any of the problems we have, so why do it?

Even when he's been doing the business there for Sarries, he hasn't for England when given the opportunity.

sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:15 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:13 pm Dingwall at 12?

Or is he usually a 13?

I haven't seen as ton of Saints this season, but I think he's been playing 12 a fair bit. 13 is probably the position he's played most, but he can certainly don the other shirt and play well.

dpedin wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:16 pm I would also have Donbrant at 8 far more dynamic and more to his game than Vunipola.

dpedin wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:16 pm

notfatcat wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:09 pm

dpedin wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:03 pm

Problem has been having Smith and Farrell on the pitch at the same time. I would let Smith play 10 and give him a proper 12 outside. Too many cooks ...

England defence has been awful coupled with complete lack of imagination in their back play. Going back to the Vunipolas is a big mistake, they are both pretty one dimensional now, they might be the big bully boys in the league but they're not good enough now at international level.

We don't have a proper 12. I think we should either play Smith with a 12 who's actually a 12, or play Ford and Farrell. I think the latter is preferable.

England just looked clueless. At least Ludlum brought a bit of dog and Arundell a slice of magic.

Care and Smith work well together with Quins with the big Saffa at 12 they let him carry into trouble and will attack of 2nd or 3rd phase ball quickly before defences are set. WIth England ball is slow and Farrell doesn't want to carry into trouble so they end up drifting laterally, Smith ends up with slow ball and behind the gain line usually with a defender on him. Surely there is an English 12 who can carry hard? I would also have Donbrant at 8 far more dynamic and more to his game than Vunipola. Also works well with Care and Smith. Its like Jones is desperate to feck up everyones game and make the game as slow as possible?

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:19 pm He hasn't been given the opportunity to do it for England. You're comparing Farrell playing flyhalf for England before 2016 - a lot has changed in 6 years.

dpedin wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:16 pm Care and Smith work well together with Quins with the big Saffa at 12 they let him carry into trouble and will attack of 2nd or 3rd phase ball quickly before defences are set. WIth England ball is slow and Farrell doesn't want to carry into trouble so they end up drifting laterally, Smith ends up with slow ball and behind the gain line usually with a defender on him. Surely there is an English 12 who can carry hard? I would also have Donbrant at 8 far more dynamic and more to his game than Vunipola. Also works well with Care and Smith. Its like Jones is desperate to feck up everyones game and make the game as slow as possible?

ASMO wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:21 pm Got to be changes for next week

Lawes to second row and Hill can fuck off. Ludlum has to start as well as Willis. Billy survives by the skin of his teeth.
Van Portfliet for Care, Smith stays 10 (do we have another center on tour?). Keep Marchant, Steward, swap Joe for Arundell.

Ymx wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:09 pm Farrell clearly still thinks he’s captain in that huddle

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:19 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:14 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:09 pm



Why not? It's his best position.

The win rate with him at 10 and Ford at 10 is starkly different, it's statistical confirmation of what's seemed apparent when watching him down the years - can't get us firing. Now, some of that is England generally being crap all too often, but I don't think sticking him at 10 solves any of the problems we have, so why do it?

Even when he's been doing the business there for Sarries, he hasn't for England when given the opportunity.

He hasn't been given the opportunity to do it for England. You're comparing Farrell playing flyhalf for England before 2016 - a lot has changed in 6 years.

It's all academic as England don't have a good enough 12 to replace him with anyway. And I rate Smith, it is possible to think Smith is a good player whilst also thinking Farrell is a good player. Two things can be true at the same time.

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:23 pm

ASMO wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:21 pm Got to be changes for next week

Lawes to second row and Hill can fuck off. Ludlum has to start as well as Willis. Billy survives by the skin of his teeth.
Van Portfliet for Care, Smith stays 10 (do we have another center on tour?). Keep Marchant, Steward, swap Joe for Arundell.

England just need more pace everywhere. Earl would be useful to have in the squad now instead of Underhill.

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:23 pm

ASMO wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:21 pm Got to be changes for next week

Lawes to second row and Hill can fuck off. Ludlum has to start as well as Willis. Billy survives by the skin of his teeth.
Van Portfliet for Care, Smith stays 10 (do we have another center on tour?). Keep Marchant, Steward, swap Joe for Arundell.

England just need more pace everywhere. Earl would be useful to have in the squad now instead of Underhill.

PCPhil wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:25 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:23 pm

ASMO wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:21 pm Got to be changes for next week

Lawes to second row and Hill can fuck off. Ludlum has to start as well as Willis. Billy survives by the skin of his teeth.
Van Portfliet for Care, Smith stays 10 (do we have another center on tour?). Keep Marchant, Steward, swap Joe for Arundell.

England just need more pace everywhere. Earl would be useful to have in the squad now instead of Underhill.

Agree. Pace in mind and legs key to unlock tight defences.

ASMO wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:31 pm I really like Greenwood but is he on crack? England dominated 60 mins and could not score how is that not a problem with the coaching? Just saw the Aundell try again, the pace of the ball being taken so far behind the gainline, he scored it despite the shite service.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:25 pm Both Smith and Farrell are hamstrung by this ridiculous approach. Farrell is asked to spend his time as a passing bot and has no opportunity to show he can run the ball and offload. Smith is asked to get the ball miles behind the gain line with a defence that has not been fixed and attacking players who are all having to do off the cuff stuff with no real partnerships and cohesion.

ASMO wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:31 pm I really like Greenwood but is he on crack? England dominated 60 mins and could not score how is that not a problem with the coaching? Just saw the Aundell try again, the pace of the ball being taken so far behind the gainline, he scored it despite the shite service.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:34 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:25 pm Both Smith and Farrell are hamstrung by this ridiculous approach. Farrell is asked to spend his time as a passing bot and has no opportunity to show he can run the ball and offload. Smith is asked to get the ball miles behind the gain line with a defence that has not been fixed and attacking players who are all having to do off the cuff stuff with no real partnerships and cohesion.

Except Farrell has never offered much threat with ball in hand and his distribution is sh*t. His strengths are his defence (when he actually tackles legally) and (was?) his dead ball kicking.

I'm also wondering whether Ford really is the better option for Eng because he clearly has a better tactical kicking game than Smith and Jones is welded to a game plan based on power and territory.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:25 pm Eddie broke Dombrandt in training.

Look, I get these performances give everyone a chance to put the boot into their favourite targets, be it the boy with the hype, or Farrell, or whoever.

But the biggest problem England has is the fact that Eddie Jones refuses to coach them to play a modern structured game that gets the most out of the players we have. Both Smith and Farrell are hamstrung by this ridiculous approach. Farrell is asked to spend his time as a passing bot and has no opportunity to show he can run the ball and offload. Smith is asked to get the ball miles behind the gain line with a defence that has not been fixed and attacking players who are all having to do off the cuff stuff with no real partnerships and cohesion.

There's some seriously fucking good players out there. The starting 9, 10, 12, 13, 15 are a very good starting point for international rugby. But Eddie Jones has convinced himself this anti rugby deliberately shapeless shit is the way forward.

And all that happens is that we end up playing an anti-system that diminishes almost every player involved in it.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:36 pm

ASMO wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:31 pm I really like Greenwood but is he on crack? England dominated 60 mins and could not score how is that not a problem with the coaching? Just saw the Aundell try again, the pace of the ball being taken so far behind the gainline, he scored it despite the shite service.

I don't think Aus will let him walk through 4 tacklers again any more than Ire will wave Ardea to the tryline again.

petej wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:40 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:25 pm Eddie broke Dombrandt in training.

Look, I get these performances give everyone a chance to put the boot into their favourite targets, be it the boy with the hype, or Farrell, or whoever.

But the biggest problem England has is the fact that Eddie Jones refuses to coach them to play a modern structured game that gets the most out of the players we have. Both Smith and Farrell are hamstrung by this ridiculous approach. Farrell is asked to spend his time as a passing bot and has no opportunity to show he can run the ball and offload. Smith is asked to get the ball miles behind the gain line with a defence that has not been fixed and attacking players who are all having to do off the cuff stuff with no real partnerships and cohesion.

There's some seriously fucking good players out there. The starting 9, 10, 12, 13, 15 are a very good starting point for international rugby. But Eddie Jones has convinced himself this anti rugby deliberately shapeless shit is the way forward.

And all that happens is that we end up playing an anti-system that diminishes almost every player involved in it.

Farrell is 30yr old and captain if it isn't working he should call it out. If he isn't aware it isn't working he shouldn't be captain. We know coaches love Farrell and large part of that I suspect is he follows instructions exceptionally well but this a problem if the instructions are shit.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:39 pm
His distribution isn't shit and it wasn't shit today either.

And he does have a running game. Whether it can work at international level is another question entirely, but no one can have watched him this season and not been impressed by his work with ball in hand, allied to a new offloading game.

It's like saying Smith can't run either. Both made fuck all metres.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:47 pm I don't want Farrell to be playing 10. I want him playing 12 and being allowed to be the player that Smith needs at 12 rather than a static pivot at 10 undermining himself and the 9 and 10.

Stranger wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:01 pm Australia worked out England's attack after 10 minutes and then England just continued to do it

Stranger wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:01 pm Australia worked out England's attack after 10 minutes and then England just continued to do it

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:52 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:47 pm I don't want Farrell to be playing 10. I want him playing 12 and being allowed to be the player that Smith needs at 12 rather than a static pivot at 10 undermining himself and the 9 and 10.

Understood.

How many Eng players do you genuinely think (on form and not on potential or past glories) would make the starting Irish or French teams? Jones clearly lost it years ago but from the outside, there seems to be a lack of bona fide class, intl players.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:29 pm There's several British Lions and players who have been at the business end of World cups, won grand slams, been match winners in Europe, etc.

I think you're missing my point. It's not about the wrong tactics. It's that we've decided the way forward is no tactics at all. Completely off the cuff. All the time.

How good would the best players in the world be if they were coached like that by Martin Gleeson?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:47 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:29 pm There's several British Lions and players who have been at the business end of World cups, won grand slams, been match winners in Europe, etc.

I think you're missing my point. It's not about the wrong tactics. It's that we've decided the way forward is no tactics at all. Completely off the cuff. All the time.

How good would the best players in the world be if they were coached like that by Martin Gleeson?

Clearly it isn't no tactics at all! It's a game plan that is at least 5 years out of date. It relies upon Eng's fwds beating the sh*t out of oppos for 80 mins (with too heavy (both senses) a reliance on Vunipola making yards from 8).

The only side that played** (I say past tense because both Flake and Hogg are dropped) off the cuff continuously was Sco: and even then, I think that was not coach instruction.......... hence the droppings.

You are right about one thing. It's easier to make good players into bad ones than to do the reverse. Witness Fre sides for decades!

** National. The Canes are guilty of it all the time.

You didn't really answer the question on quality players.

England only kicked 18 times across the 80 minutes. Australia did so on 19 occasions. England completed 155 passes to Australia’s tally of 111.