NPR

Gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooorne

FW?

assfly wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:32 amFW?

Fixxxed, slip of the finger

Big Nipper wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:32 am Fixxxed, slip of the finger

The excitement getting to you?

Bit classless to celebrate someone's death like that.

All I'll say is that he is certainly one of the biggest figures in South Africa's history as a state.

Lemoentjie wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:38 am Bit classless to celebrate someone's death like that.

All I'll say is that he is certainly one of the biggest figures in South Africa's history as a state.

The only thing that is classless is somehow making your way to the top leadership of the National Party

He's a complicated figure, which I'm sure the response to his death will demonstrate.

F.W. de Klerk, in full Frederik Willem de Klerk, (born March 18, 1936, Johannesburg, South Africa), politician who as president of South Africa (1989–94) brought the apartheid system of racial segregation to an end and negotiated a transition to majority rule in his country. He and Nelson Mandela jointly received the 1993 Nobel Prize for Peace for their collaboration in efforts to establish nonracial democracy in South Africa.

Forgive my ignorance, but the above doesn’t sound like a terrible contribution to South Africa.

But I know very little on it.

Ymx wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am

F.W. de Klerk, in full Frederik Willem de Klerk, (born March 18, 1936, Johannesburg, South Africa), politician who as president of South Africa (1989–94) brought the apartheid system of racial segregation to an end and negotiated a transition to majority rule in his country. He and Nelson Mandela jointly received the 1993 Nobel Prize for Peace for their collaboration in efforts to establish nonracial democracy in South Africa.

Forgive my ignorance, but the above doesn’t sound like a terrible contribution to South Africa.

But I know very little on it.

I think some will tell you he made that happen and others will say he was dragged kicking and screaming to it and for political expediency

Ymx wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am

F.W. de Klerk, in full Frederik Willem de Klerk, (born March 18, 1936, Johannesburg, South Africa), politician who as president of South Africa (1989–94) brought the apartheid system of racial segregation to an end and negotiated a transition to majority rule in his country. He and Nelson Mandela jointly received the 1993 Nobel Prize for Peace for their collaboration in efforts to establish nonracial democracy in South Africa.

Forgive my ignorance, but the above doesn’t sound like a terrible contribution to South Africa.

But I know very little on it.

If you believe FW brought Apartheid to an end due to his commitment to racial equality you must be smoking some strong stuff. He had no choice, the country was circling the drain due to his Apartheid cabal

Big Nipper wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:01 am

Ymx wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am

F.W. de Klerk, in full Frederik Willem de Klerk, (born March 18, 1936, Johannesburg, South Africa), politician who as president of South Africa (1989–94) brought the apartheid system of racial segregation to an end and negotiated a transition to majority rule in his country. He and Nelson Mandela jointly received the 1993 Nobel Prize for Peace for their collaboration in efforts to establish nonracial democracy in South Africa.

Forgive my ignorance, but the above doesn’t sound like a terrible contribution to South Africa.

But I know very little on it.

If you believe FW brought Apartheid to an end due to his commitment to racial equality you must be smoking some strong stuff. He had no choice, the country was circling the drain due to his Apartheid cabal

Very true Nips, but keep it classy.

Big Nipper wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:01 am

Ymx wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am

F.W. de Klerk, in full Frederik Willem de Klerk, (born March 18, 1936, Johannesburg, South Africa), politician who as president of South Africa (1989–94) brought the apartheid system of racial segregation to an end and negotiated a transition to majority rule in his country. He and Nelson Mandela jointly received the 1993 Nobel Prize for Peace for their collaboration in efforts to establish nonracial democracy in South Africa.

Forgive my ignorance, but the above doesn’t sound like a terrible contribution to South Africa.

But I know very little on it.

If you believe FW brought Apartheid to an end due to his commitment to racial equality you must be smoking some strong stuff. He had no choice, the country was circling the drain due to his Apartheid cabal

De Klerk was the right man at the right time leading the NP and for that South Africans should be grateful. He wasn't perfect, but at least he saw the light early and reacted in the right way.

Some of the dinosaurs before him made Mugabe look reasonable and compassionate.

He really tarnished any shred of goodwill he had last year when his foundation argued Apartheid was not a crime against humanity.

Recon there's not many people who liked the guy.

average joe wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:21 am Recon there's not many people who liked the guy.

Agreed. Far right white nutjobs think he is a traitor, and the rest know him as an Apartheid stalwart

Sandstorm wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:14 am

Big Nipper wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:01 am

Ymx wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am

Forgive my ignorance, but the above doesn’t sound like a terrible contribution to South Africa.

But I know very little on it.

If you believe FW brought Apartheid to an end due to his commitment to racial equality you must be smoking some strong stuff. He had no choice, the country was circling the drain due to his Apartheid cabal

De Klerk was the right man at the right time leading the NP and for that South Africans should be grateful. He wasn't perfect, but at least he saw the light early and reacted in the right way.

Some of the dinosaurs before him made Mugabe look reasonable and compassionate.

Very, very true.

Big Nipper wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:16 am He really tarnished any shred of goodwill he had last year when his foundation argued Apartheid was not a crime against humanity.

Not their finest hour.

Big Nipper wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:01 am

Ymx wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am

F.W. de Klerk, in full Frederik Willem de Klerk, (born March 18, 1936, Johannesburg, South Africa), politician who as president of South Africa (1989–94) brought the apartheid system of racial segregation to an end and negotiated a transition to majority rule in his country. He and Nelson Mandela jointly received the 1993 Nobel Prize for Peace for their collaboration in efforts to establish nonracial democracy in South Africa.

Forgive my ignorance, but the above doesn’t sound like a terrible contribution to South Africa.

But I know very little on it.

If you believe FW brought Apartheid to an end due to his commitment to racial equality you must be smoking some strong stuff. He had no choice, the country was circling the drain due to his Apartheid cabal

That drain is full of kak since FWs days.

Slick wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:01 am

Ymx wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am

F.W. de Klerk, in full Frederik Willem de Klerk, (born March 18, 1936, Johannesburg, South Africa), politician who as president of South Africa (1989–94) brought the apartheid system of racial segregation to an end and negotiated a transition to majority rule in his country. He and Nelson Mandela jointly received the 1993 Nobel Prize for Peace for their collaboration in efforts to establish nonracial democracy in South Africa.

Forgive my ignorance, but the above doesn’t sound like a terrible contribution to South Africa.

But I know very little on it.

I think some will tell you he made that happen and others will say he was dragged kicking and screaming to it and for political expediency

Basically the ANC and their acolytes hate to share the credit for ending apartheid so they've done their best to rewrite history by saying fw de klerk had no choice and also to ignore the contribution of the many other anti apartheid organisations that existed at the time. Not unlike the CCP pretending that it was solely them who liberated China from the Japanese. FW is also hated by many on the right (not only Saffas ) for "betraying" white south Africans

I met him during the interval of a Bryn terfel concert in cape town, he was extremely good natured and loved talking politics.

This thread has wonderful car-crash potential. Staying the hell away

Insane_Homer wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:31 am This thread has wonderful car-crash potential. Staying the hell away

spoilsport!

Big Nipper wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:01 am

Ymx wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:52 am

F.W. de Klerk, in full Frederik Willem de Klerk, (born March 18, 1936, Johannesburg, South Africa), politician who as president of South Africa (1989–94) brought the apartheid system of racial segregation to an end and negotiated a transition to majority rule in his country. He and Nelson Mandela jointly received the 1993 Nobel Prize for Peace for their collaboration in efforts to establish nonracial democracy in South Africa.

Forgive my ignorance, but the above doesn’t sound like a terrible contribution to South Africa.

But I know very little on it.

If you believe FW brought Apartheid to an end due to his commitment to racial equality you must be smoking some strong stuff. He had no choice, the country was circling the drain due to his Apartheid cabal

I don’t think anything, as I said I know little. I was just asking after I looked him up and that was straight from wiki.

I suspect the transition could have been far worse with someone else at the helm but am willing to be educated.

assfly wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:49 am He's a complicated figure, which I'm sure the response to his death will demonstrate.

Quite. Didn't he gain a Nobel Peace Prize?

Big Nipper wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:25 am

average joe wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:21 am Recon there's not many people who liked the guy.

Agreed. Far right white nutjobs think he is a traitor, and the rest know him as an Apartheid stalwart

The bar is very low, granted, but had he been a hardliner like many others in his midst, things could have gotten very ugly very fast.
He is being put on a pedestal for having done the bare minimum sure, but at the end of the day I'm glad it was him at the helm and not one of the other NP nutjobs that he was fighting against within his own party.

I was only a youngster but I remember how shocked people were when he announced the unbanning of the ANC and SACP . The peaceful end of apartheid in the space of a few years certainly didn't seem inevitable at the time

Blake wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:56 pm

Big Nipper wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:25 am

average joe wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:21 am Recon there's not many people who liked the guy.

Agreed. Far right white nutjobs think he is a traitor, and the rest know him as an Apartheid stalwart

The bar is very low, granted, but had he been a hardliner like many others in his midst, things could have gotten very ugly very fast.
He is being put on a pedestal for having done the bare minimum sure, but at the end of the day I'm glad it was him at the helm and not one of the other NP nutjobs that he was fighting against within his own party.

From the outside looking in, could another leader have gone full Ian Smith and let it go as far as bloodshed to hold onto minority rule?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:27 pm Quite. Didn't he gain a Nobel Peace Prize?

Yes, it was a joint award with Madiba. Controversial, but recognition for his participation in the downfall of Apartheid.

Uncle fester wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:29 pm

Blake wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:56 pm

Big Nipper wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:25 am

Agreed. Far right white nutjobs think he is a traitor, and the rest know him as an Apartheid stalwart

The bar is very low, granted, but had he been a hardliner like many others in his midst, things could have gotten very ugly very fast.
He is being put on a pedestal for having done the bare minimum sure, but at the end of the day I'm glad it was him at the helm and not one of the other NP nutjobs that he was fighting against within his own party.

From the outside looking in, could another leader have gone full Ian Smith and let it go as far as bloodshed to hold onto minority rule?

Yes, easily

Uncle fester wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:29 pm From the outside looking in, could another leader have gone full Ian Smith and let it go as far as bloodshed to hold onto minority rule?

Yes, and unlike in Rhodesia, they probably would have won the war.

Uncle fester wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:29 pm From the outside looking in, could another leader have gone full Ian Smith and let it go as far as bloodshed to hold onto minority rule?

This is an interesting comparison, and one that I think of quite a lot. Smith is still spoken about like a saviour to white Rhodesians, but all he did in my opinion was delay the inevitable and lead thousands of young men to their deaths. If power had been handed over in the mid 1960s like all the other colonies, Zimbabwe could be in such a different place now.

The fact that Mandela and de Klerk managed to avoid a civil war is something to behold.

assfly wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:58 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:29 pm From the outside looking in, could another leader have gone full Ian Smith and let it go as far as bloodshed to hold onto minority rule?

This is an interesting comparison, and one that I think of quite a lot. Smith is still spoken about like a saviour to white Rhodesians, but all he did in my opinion was delay the inevitable and lead thousands of young men to their deaths. If power had been handed over in the mid 1960s like all the other colonies, Zimbabwe could be in such a different place now.

The fact that Mandela and de Klerk managed to avoid a civil war is something to behold.

AIUI Smith had the situation broadly under control until Salazar fell no? And by then the die was already cast.

Lemoentjie wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:48 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:29 pm From the outside looking in, could another leader have gone full Ian Smith and let it go as far as bloodshed to hold onto minority rule?

Yes, and unlike in Rhodesia, they probably would have won the war.

Who? The SADF? Lol. They ultimately would have bled to death. The support from Israel, the UK and USA would have evaporated as soon as the optics of white soldiers killing black people escalated. Rhodesia has support from us and Britain. No way the apartheid govt could fight and survive a war once the under the table sanction busting dried up.

Looking forward to Ox's contribution to this here fred.

handyman wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:13 pm Looking forward to Ox's contribution to this here fred.

Something Transvaal, those Cape fools, not Natal, something, something.

FalseBayFC wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:12 pm

Lemoentjie wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:48 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:29 pm From the outside looking in, could another leader have gone full Ian Smith and let it go as far as bloodshed to hold onto minority rule?

Yes, and unlike in Rhodesia, they probably would have won the war.

Who? The SADF? Lol. They ultimately would have bled to death. The support from Israel, the UK and USA would have evaporated as soon as the optics of white soldiers killing black people escalated. Rhodesia has support from us and Britain. No way the apartheid govt could fight and survive a war once the under the table sanction busting dried up.

Pretty much this. Urban civil war in your own neighbourhood is a different prospect of a bush war against an external enemy on foreign soil.

I’m sure government and the SANDF had battle plans and contingencies for such an eventuality, but at some point they would have been bled dry of funds, resources and bodies to throw into the meat grinder.

Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:10 pm AIUI Smith had the situation broadly under control until Salazar fell no? And by then the die was already cast.

I don't think it was every truly under control. Although white Rhodesians appeared to have thrived in the conditions from 1965 onwards, with their unique siege mentality, even then they must have seen what was going on around them.

But yes, 1974 things definitely changed with the front in Mozambique opening up. When John Vorster resigned in 1978 Rhodesia lost its last ally.

Strikes me that he occupies a similar place in history to Gorbachev in that he brought about an end to a dying, unsustainable system with relatively minor bloodshed.

I think these types of leaders never quite get the credit that they deserve because people tend to take for granted that what happened under their watch was inevitable.

Hugo wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:11 pm Strikes me that he occupies a similar place in history to Gorbachev in that he brought about an end to a dying, unsustainable system with relatively minor bloodshed.

I think these types of leaders never quite get the credit that they deserve because people tend to take for granted that what happened under their watch was inevitable.

You are probably right and I think if it had ended there and he retired quietly into public life, that is maybe what he would have been remembered for.

But like all egotistical politicians he had to start of the FW de Klerk Foundation as a vehicle to obtain some social relevance and make some questionable comments about the pre- and post apartheid society.

Even before the era of internet cancel culture, these raised a ton of eyebrows and tarnished whatever legacy he had at the time.

FalseBayFC wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:12 pm

Lemoentjie wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:48 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:29 pm From the outside looking in, could another leader have gone full Ian Smith and let it go as far as bloodshed to hold onto minority rule?

Yes, and unlike in Rhodesia, they probably would have won the war.

Who? The SADF? Lol. They ultimately would have bled to death. The support from Israel, the UK and USA would have evaporated as soon as the optics of white soldiers killing black people escalated. Rhodesia has support from us and Britain. No way the apartheid govt could fight and survive a war once the under the table sanction busting dried up.

Ja the SADF.

It depends on your timeframe. I think it could have continued well into the late 2000s, even with heavy sanctions. SA was very self-sufficient.