So, coronavirus...

[tc27]

London is probaly the part of the UK that can genuinely claim to be different in terms demographics and having communities with different backgrounds, values and traditions. This is all part of the spice of life in any of the worlds geniune global cities but vaccine hesitancy is a obvious downside.

Edit...the Highlands and Islands of Scotland maybe can claim this too but its more to do with the geography.

[shaggy]

Vaccination rates in UK (%age of eligible people who have had each shot, i.e. over 12s)

London
1st dose 68%
2nd dose 61%
3rd dose 30%

Scotland
1st dose 91%
2nd dose 83%
3rd dose 81%

South East
1st dose 83%
2nd dose 77%
3rd dose 45%

North West
1st dose 79%
2nd dose 73%
3rd dose 43%

Wales
1st dose 90%
2nd dose 83%
3rd dose 45%

UK
1st dose 89%
2nd dose 81%
3rd dose 42%

London is probably a bit younger, a bit more mixed racially and with large areas of poverty, but it’s still a shocking difference.

No idea what this level of difference will make to transmission, hospitalisation or death. However if you take a down and dirty number of 20% of London’s population, say 1.5 million, half of them catching it and a case hospitalisation rate of 1% instead of 0.3%, that’s an extra 10,000 hospitalisations. There are only 20,000 hospital beds in London.

Pretty sure I’ve used conservative hospitalisation numbers.

(Caveat: there’s something a bit weird in the figures, the rate for England is higher than the rate for any region in England, so there’s something going on with the way figures are allocated).

Unvaccinated in Ireland seem to be disproportionately foreign. Understandable if they are coming from countries where distrust of authorities is somewhat normal, i.e. former Soviet bloc countries.

Maybe a bit of that going on for London too?

I recall from around the vaccine roll out they were finding most resistance/scepticism from various communities of colour and London's one of the few spots in the UK where they'll be present in really large numbers.

In my part of SW London there is clearly an Eastern European and South African element of resistance which is strongest based on those not wearing masks. Black and Asian seem to be wearing masks but obviously it is not always no mask = no vaccine.

[Jockaline]

I don't think the 3rd dose figure for Scotland can be correct

It's not, I believe it is 51%

If having lockdown I think there's a case for them to be regional. London with it's low vaccination is more vulnerable, maybe when a health emergency has been declared as is the case there now. Although Scotland/SNP, if given the financial support, will lockdown regardless of hospital admissions.

[Biffer]

I don't think the 3rd dose figure for Scotland can be correct

Yeah, typo, it’s 51.

[tc27]

I don't think the 3rd dose figure for Scotland can be correct

It's not, I believe it is 51%

If having lockdown I think there's a case for them to be regional. London with it's low vaccination is more vulnerable, maybe when a health emergency has been declared as is the case there now. Although Scotland/SNP, if given the financial support, will lockdown regardless of hospital admissions.

I think in fairness billions in extra Barnett consequentials were made available as a result of covid spending and its not clear if its all being spent.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/s ... 77521.html

Perhaps the 350 million given to Angus Robertson's constitutional and foriegn affairs department could be reallocated?

[Jockaline]

I don't think the 3rd dose figure for Scotland can be correct

It's not, I believe it is 51%

If having lockdown I think there's a case for them to be regional. London with it's low vaccination is more vulnerable, maybe when a health emergency has been declared as is the case there now. Although Scotland/SNP, if given the financial support, will lockdown regardless of hospital admissions.

I think in fairness billions in extra Barnett consequentials were made available as a result of covid spending and its not clear if its all being spent.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/s ... 77521.html

Perhaps the 400+ million given to Angus Robertson's constitutional and foriegn affairs department could be reallocated?

Behind the pay was for me, but I agree that governments need to be more transparent in how public money is used. Nicki was saying on Friday that money would need to be diverted from other budgets, which seems ruled out, if more support were to be given to hospitality to cover from their customer base being decimated by gov advice. Hence blaming UK for not giving them more money.

[tc27]

Basically the article reported on the auditor saying the SG has not yet demonstrated how its spent all the extra money and it appears to have infact underspent by 580 million(!).

It might be rational to see wait for the whole UK to lockdown and presumably provide further furlough directly from HMG but my point is that the devolved admin could act unilaterally now to support hospitality as it has the cash on hand and indeed is spending enough in non devolved areas to cover it.

[tc27]

Wven without the unaccounted for millions and discretionary spending in reserved areas the Treasury has opened the money tap again so presumably more restrictions are incoming

[petej]

Wven without the unaccounted for millions and discretionary spending in reserved areas the Treasury has opened the money tap again so presumably more restrictions are incoming

Not so sure about that. I don't think the restrictions are necessary. The vast majority of the public is pretty sensible and cautious. The money will still be required to support the hospitality sector. I wouldn't be surprised if cases peak in London in a few days.

[Slick]

What’s the latest on hospitalisations?

This new thing is mental, have literally lost count of the number of people I know who have had it

[petej]

What’s the latest on hospitalisations?

This new thing is mental, have literally lost count of the number of people I know who have had it

Not gone up that much considering the number of cases. Still early days.

EDIT: I wonder how many people are lft testing every time they have the slightest symptom (ie runny nose, which is the most common symptom).

[Ymx]

Ok, so 22.5 hours in after my Moderna jab.

Woke up with slight headache, and sore arm. I’ve a cold which is not helping, but mostly the previous symptoms didn’t prevail. So far, beyond all predictions I’m still alive.

Ok, balls, spoke too soon. It wasn’t a cold. Just tested positive in lat flow test. Booked PCR for tomorrow.

[Ovals]

Ok, so 22.5 hours in after my Moderna jab.

Woke up with slight headache, and sore arm. I’ve a cold which is not helping, but mostly the previous symptoms didn’t prevail. So far, beyond all predictions I’m still alive.

Ok, balls, spoke too soon. It wasn’t a cold. Just tested positive in lat flow test. Booked PCR for tomorrow.

Sorry to hear that - hopefully it will just be a mild case - bit of a bummer having to isolate over Xmas......

[Sandstorm]

Ok, so 22.5 hours in after my Moderna jab.

Woke up with slight headache, and sore arm. I’ve a cold which is not helping, but mostly the previous symptoms didn’t prevail. So far, beyond all predictions I’m still alive.

Ok, balls, spoke too soon. It wasn’t a cold. Just tested positive in lat flow test. Booked PCR for tomorrow.

Sorry to hear that - hopefully it will just be a mild case - bit of a bummer having to isolate over Xmas......

Judging by the people I know and talk to, there’s a 50/50 chance he’ll do that.

[Biffer]

Ok, so 22.5 hours in after my Moderna jab.

Woke up with slight headache, and sore arm. I’ve a cold which is not helping, but mostly the previous symptoms didn’t prevail. So far, beyond all predictions I’m still alive.

Ok, balls, spoke too soon. It wasn’t a cold. Just tested positive in lat flow test. Booked PCR for tomorrow.

That’s shit man. Stay well.

[Kiwias]

Ok, so 22.5 hours in after my Moderna jab.

Woke up with slight headache, and sore arm. I’ve a cold which is not helping, but mostly the previous symptoms didn’t prevail. So far, beyond all predictions I’m still alive.

Ok, balls, spoke too soon. It wasn’t a cold. Just tested positive in lat flow test. Booked PCR for tomorrow.

Hope you'll be alright

[Tichtheid]

Ok, so 22.5 hours in after my Moderna jab.

Woke up with slight headache, and sore arm. I’ve a cold which is not helping, but mostly the previous symptoms didn’t prevail. So far, beyond all predictions I’m still alive.

Ok, balls, spoke too soon. It wasn’t a cold. Just tested positive in lat flow test. Booked PCR for tomorrow.

Good luck, keep well.

[_Os_]

"Lockdown for 21 days to flatten the curve and save the health service".
"Having the vaccine protects yourself reduces transmission and allows society to get back to normal".

I got dog piled at the start of the year (at the other place, but most of those posters seem to be here now), for stating a few things on this. That China lied, in no particular order: videos of people collapsing dead in the street the "dead" person breaking their fall, people being welded into their homes, a case and death rate that dropped to zero like nowhere else in the world, the origin of the virus very likely not being from bat biltong. I then made the obvious connection that copying China was perhaps a bad idea, because you know, the mountain of lies. I then further pointed out that because Covid is now endemic to human populations everywhere that vaccines were going to be of limited use (I wasn't originally going to bother with the vaccine as I'm not an at risk category, but ended up getting it very early, and it's since shown to be effective in reducing cases that require hospitalisation).

Now it's the end of the year, everyone in the developed world that wanted the vaccine has had an opportunity to get it. In SA also, pretty much everyone that wanted it has had the opportunity (Ramaphosa was talking kak when he claimed SA didn't have vaccine because of the West or something, most South Africans aren't vaccinated because they don't assess the risk as high, it's the same in Namibia where vaccine was destroyed because it went out of date). But we're still essentially in the same conversation about vaccines (now boosters)/Covid passes/lockdowns/isolating/travel bans/and all the rest of it. If something is endemic to the human population, this makes all these measures either pointless, or alternatively useful to some extent (vaccines) but only implementable forever by people doing so of their own volition.

None of the human interventions have made any impact on the evolutionary trajectory of the virus. If you go on worldometers and sort by deaths per million, countries with wildly different strategies/populations/development levels, come out not much different to each other. Sweden and South Africa have nearly the same deaths per million, neither are in the top 50, both countries and the Covid strategies they implemented were about as different as it's possible to be.

The end destination of all this is likely endemic Covid (there is a chance it just naturally disappears though). Quite a lot of people and governments are still behaving like the end destination is zero Covid and they can make that happen. There's some sunk cost fallacy going on now.

Omicron looks to be the critical variant in how this all goes. Omicron seems to show Covid is evolving towards less deadly but more infectious. In the UK (a developed nation with a health service covering everyone) in a normal year 20k-30k people die of flu/pneumonia. So the question is, in any reasonably large country can people accept that 1000s will die each year of Covid? If Omicron infects millions and not many people die (like the flu) and it's still deemed a deadly pandemic etc, then the logic of that is controls forever.

The whole discussion has unfortunately become Americanised, meaning it's both stupid and toxic. But unlike the hysteria over Trump we're all forced to follow this shit show, so I'll check back in on this sometime in 2022. Maybe Australia will have stopped expanding their concentration camp system by mid-2022.

[_Os_]

Most said the travel bans were pointless and in fact did more harm than good when it comes to scientific cooperation, and because of flight bans making it difficult to get reagents, tests and other consumables to the scientists in Southern Africa.

I doubt they are immense twats like you who think many people losing their livelihoods because of no international tourism is hilarious. Not to even mention the other harm that travel bans cause.

I told you at the start of the year, that copying China's authoritarian dictatorship that lied about all of this, maybe wasn't the best move. You were one of the dog pilers!

But here we are. SA banned, then SA not banned, then SA banned, then SA not banned. Now France and Germany have banned the UK.

It's been stupid for quite awhile now.

[Paddington Bear]

Got a walk in booster yesterday. No side affects, 3 from 3 on that front. Loads of people there and very efficiently run as ever.

I was talking with a bloke from Eastern Europe I work with recently about vaccine hesitancy. He isn't personally but seeing it from the perspective of people who grew up in the Eastern Bloc makes it much more understandable IMHO.

[Torquemada 1420]

Bored of this hysteria. SA reporting Omicron admissions to hospital are 91% lower than previous variants. Some twonk on the beeb whining "but, but.... we have an older population in the UK". Yes, you w*nker. But SA has a much, much lower vaccination rate.

Just been told by a friend working in MK Hospital that there are currently TWELVE Corona cases in the entire hospital out of 1200 patients. He wasn't able to determine how many obesity bed blockers there were.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I then further pointed out that because Covid is now endemic to human populations everywhere that vaccines were going to be of limited use

Saying it's endemic to humans isn't the same as say the WHO noting it's gone from a pandemic to being endemic. I suspect absent of it simply being gone everyone would like for it to be endemic, but for that to happen you need contagion rates to fall dramatically, so infections don't spike and health systems get overloaded. If it becomes noted as endemic then some of what you seem to be hoping for will follow, but for now it's still a pandemic and so much of what you're pointing out is questionable as things stand, more a wish list to Santa than a critique of where we are.

[petej]

Bored of this hysteria. SA reporting Omicron admissions to hospital are 91% lower than previous variants. Some twonk on the beeb whining "but, but.... we have an older population in the UK". Yes, you w*nker. But SA has a much, much lower vaccination rate.

Just been told by a friend working in MK Hospital that there are currently TWELVE Corona cases in the entire hospital out of 1200 patients. He wasn't able to determine how many obesity bed blockers there were.

I do wonder if it displaced delta if UK hospital admissions could actually drop.

[dpedin]

I then further pointed out that because Covid is now endemic to human populations everywhere that vaccines were going to be of limited use

Saying it's endemic to humans isn't the same as say the WHO noting it's gone from a pandemic to being endemic. I suspect absent of it simply being gone everyone would like for it to be endemic, but for that to happen you need contagion rates to fall dramatically, so infections don't spike and health systems get overloaded. If it becomes noted as endemic then some of what you seem to be hoping for will follow, but for now it's still a pandemic and so much of what you're pointing out is questionable as things stand, more a wish list to Santa than a critique of where we are.

To repeat covid becoming endemic does not mean it becomes any less lethal it just means it is widespread across the population and therefore likely to kill more people. If we are really, really lucky omicron might be less harmful but we don't know for sure yet, I hope so! However lots of diseases are endemic without becoming 'less deadly' but what we have done is found ways to control them and reduce community spread more effectively ie vaccines and reduce illness and death as a result. We are pretty good at controlling diseases and reducing their harm ie measles, mumps, rubella, polio, rabies, etc but we are dealing with a new virus and it will take time to put everything in place globally. I would say we have done pretty well in 12 months to have developed and rolled out a pretty effective vaccine, another 12 months and we will have even better vaccines in place that will control the virus and transmission. In the interim we just need to do whatever we can to reduce illness and deaths ie wear a mask, distance, get jabbed, etc. It aint difficult but it needs strong leadership and good government and unfortunately in UK we have neither.

[_Os_]

I then further pointed out that because Covid is now endemic to human populations everywhere that vaccines were going to be of limited use

Saying it's endemic to humans isn't the same as say the WHO noting it's gone from a pandemic to being endemic. I suspect absent of it simply being gone everyone would like for it to be endemic, but for that to happen you need contagion rates to fall dramatically, so infections don't spike and health systems get overloaded. If it becomes noted as endemic then some of what you seem to be hoping for will follow, but for now it's still a pandemic and so much of what you're pointing out is questionable as things stand, more a wish list to Santa than a critique of where we are.

I've been saying this since near the start. The direction of travel is towards what I'm saying, so the wish list to Santa is happening. From memory I posted on it early in 2020 supported lockdowns and the rest, that lasted a week or so before it seemed obvious to me that mitigation would fail, then posted that a lot of this didn't make much sense (thinking about it when I got dog piled may have been then, 2020 and 2021 blend into one year).

And here we are. It's endemic, zero Covid is a failure. It will spike periodically, same as the flu does.

The Medical Advisory Committee to the SA government has just recommended ending all isolation based measures and all contact tracing, it's endemic now, so it's pointless.

Any strategy involves working backwards from a realistic end goal you desire. Zero Covid was never on the table, short of the virus just disappearing naturally (which could happen, but nothing can be done to bring that about, sometimes viruses do mysteriously disappear). So what is your desired end goal? Because if you support controls (of something that was only controllable at the very start, but China lied and kept everything secret early on in 2019 so that chance wasn't available) then you'll be supporting those controls forever.

I'm guessing that you like many people, wouldn't be okay with it if it were as deadly as flu (ie thousands dying a year)? So arbitrary pointless controls forever it is then, then complain when our rulers break those rules whilst demanding the same shameless untrustworthy leaders implement more rules? Seems stupid to me, but as I said, I shall check back in on the progress of the concentration camps etc next year.

[dpedin]

I then further pointed out that because Covid is now endemic to human populations everywhere that vaccines were going to be of limited use

Saying it's endemic to humans isn't the same as say the WHO noting it's gone from a pandemic to being endemic. I suspect absent of it simply being gone everyone would like for it to be endemic, but for that to happen you need contagion rates to fall dramatically, so infections don't spike and health systems get overloaded. If it becomes noted as endemic then some of what you seem to be hoping for will follow, but for now it's still a pandemic and so much of what you're pointing out is questionable as things stand, more a wish list to Santa than a critique of where we are.

I've been saying this since near the start. The direction of travel is towards what I'm saying, so the wish list to Santa is happening. From memory I posted on it early in 2020 supported lockdowns and the rest, that lasted a week or so before it seemed obvious to me that mitigation would fail, then posted that a lot of this didn't make much sense (thinking about it when I got dog piled may have been then, 2020 and 2021 blend into one year).

And here we are. It's endemic, zero Covid is a failure. It will spike periodically, same as the flu does.

The Medical Advisory Committee to the SA government has just recommended ending all isolation based measures and all contact tracing, it's endemic now, so it's pointless.

Any strategy involves working backwards from a realistic end goal you desire. Zero Covid was never on the table, short of the virus just disappearing naturally (which could happen, but nothing can be done to bring that about, sometimes viruses do mysteriously disappear). So what is your desired end goal? Because if you support controls (of something that was only controllable at the very start, but China lied and kept everything secret early on in 2019 so that chance wasn't available) then you'll be supporting those controls forever.

I'm guessing that you like many people, wouldn't be okay with it if it were as deadly as flu (ie thousands dying a year)? So arbitrary pointless controls forever it is then, then complain when our rulers break those rules whilst demanding the same shameless untrustworthy leaders implement more rules? Seems stupid to me, but as I said, I shall check back in on the progress of the concentration camps etc next year.

Which viruses that have been endemic have magically disappeared without any sensible PH appoach? Covid is not endemic in many countries around the world.

Please don't use the term 'concentration camps' in the context of covid - it is not appropriate and does a huge disservice to those who actually suffered locked up and dying in them!

[Torquemada 1420]

Bored of this hysteria. SA reporting Omicron admissions to hospital are 91% lower than previous variants. Some twonk on the beeb whining "but, but.... we have an older population in the UK". Yes, you w*nker. But SA has a much, much lower vaccination rate.

Just been told by a friend working in MK Hospital that there are currently TWELVE Corona cases in the entire hospital out of 1200 patients. He wasn't able to determine how many obesity bed blockers there were.

I do wonder if it displaced delta if UK hospital admissions could actually drop.

The SA data implies exactly that.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I then further pointed out that because Covid is now endemic to human populations everywhere that vaccines were going to be of limited use

Saying it's endemic to humans isn't the same as say the WHO noting it's gone from a pandemic to being endemic. I suspect absent of it simply being gone everyone would like for it to be endemic, but for that to happen you need contagion rates to fall dramatically, so infections don't spike and health systems get overloaded. If it becomes noted as endemic then some of what you seem to be hoping for will follow, but for now it's still a pandemic and so much of what you're pointing out is questionable as things stand, more a wish list to Santa than a critique of where we are.

To repeat covid becoming endemic does not mean it becomes any less lethal it just means it is widespread across the population and therefore likely to kill more people. If we are really, really lucky omicron might be less harmful but we don't know for sure yet, I hope so! However lots of diseases are endemic without becoming 'less deadly' but what we have done is found ways to control them and reduce community spread more effectively ie vaccines and reduce illness and death as a result. We are pretty good at controlling diseases and reducing their harm ie measles, mumps, rubella, polio, rabies, etc but we are dealing with a new virus and it will take time to put everything in place globally. I would say we have done pretty well in 12 months to have developed and rolled out a pretty effective vaccine, another 12 months and we will have even better vaccines in place that will control the virus and transmission. In the interim we just need to do whatever we can to reduce illness and deaths ie wear a mask, distance, get jabbed, etc. It aint difficult but it needs strong leadership and good government and unfortunately in UK we have neither.

I was assuming in that comment if it's endemic we've found some manner of dealing with the ongoing reality of Covid19, similar perhaps to flu. And its prevalence was more at some manageable and sustained (if also somewhat seasonal) level, as opposed to the pandemic which sees uncontrollable spikes given normal social activity. It could in fairness be sustained, widespread and lethal, that's a fair point

[Torquemada 1420]

Which viruses that have been endemic have magically disappeared without any sensible PH appoach?

Are you suggesting this approach has been sensible? From where I'm sitting, it's looked more like headless chicken stuff.

[petej]

Dpedin, I think one of the most interesting articles I read over the summer from cell was discussing why there was only 4 endemic human coronaviruses when there are loads of coronaviruses. One of the reasons they thought there was is because there is a limited number of ways in which things can escape immunity or drift so there is only space or enough niche's for a limited number of endemic coronaviruses. We've seen convergent evolution of COVID-19 already. COVID could displace one of them

Something slightly different but also interesting has been found in bacteria with antibiotics where as it adapts to become resistant to one antibiotic it becomes vulnerable to something it was previously resistant to. Link below to a really interesting podcast episode that discusses this.


https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/ra ... -and-gamma

Two stories of surprisingly simple scientific discoveries one that seems straight out of sci-fi, and the other, directly from the past.

First, we head to the lab of neuroscientist Li-Huei Tsai to discover the power of flashing lights on an Alzheimer’s-addled (mouse) brain. In this segment, Li-Huei tells us about her team’s latest research, which also includes flashing sound, and ways in which light and sound together might retrieve lost memories. This new science is not a cure, and is far from a treatment, but it’s a finding so … simple, you won’t be able to shake it. Come join us for a lab visit, where we’ll meet some mice, stare at some light, and come face-to-face with the mystery of memory. We can promise you: by the end, you’ll never think the same way about Christmas lights again. Or jingle bells.

Then, what happens when you combine an axe-wielding microbiologist and a disease-obsessed historian? A strange brew that's hard to resist, even for a modern day microbe. In the war on devilish microbes, our weapons are starting to fail us. The antibiotics we once wielded like miraculous flaming swords seem more like lukewarm butter knives. But today we follow an odd couple to a storied land of elves and dragons. There, they uncover a 1000-year-old secret that makes us reconsider our most basic assumptions about human progress and wonder: What if the only way forward is backward?

[Biffer]

Bored of this hysteria. SA reporting Omicron admissions to hospital are 91% lower than previous variants. Some twonk on the beeb whining "but, but.... we have an older population in the UK". Yes, you w*nker. But SA has a much, much lower vaccination rate.

Just been told by a friend working in MK Hospital that there are currently TWELVE Corona cases in the entire hospital out of 1200 patients. He wasn't able to determine how many obesity bed blockers there were.

I do wonder if it displaced delta if UK hospital admissions could actually drop.

The SA data implies exactly that.

That can't be clearly stated yet. SA looks like it's had a disconnection between rates of case, hospitalisations and deaths, which is great. But we've already had that in the UK due to vaccination. What's not clear is if SA is seeing that effect (but coming substantially from prior infection) or if its an additional effect.

[Torquemada 1420]

I do wonder if it displaced delta if UK hospital admissions could actually drop.

The SA data implies exactly that.

That can't be clearly stated yet. SA looks like it's had a disconnection between rates of case, hospitalisations and deaths, which is great. But we've already had that in the UK due to vaccination. What's not clear is if SA is seeing that effect (but coming substantially from prior infection) or if its an additional effect.

Yes. I agree. Which is why I used the word "implies"!

[_Os_]

Which viruses that have been endemic have magically disappeared without any sensible PH appoach? Covid is not endemic in many countries around the world.

Please don't use the term 'concentration camps' in the context of covid - it is not appropriate and does a huge disservice to those who actually suffered locked up and dying in them!

The Asian flu virus appeared in the late 1950s did its thing, disappeared, then came back (antigenic shift) as the Hong Kong flu virus in the late 1960s. Then became a strain of seasonal flu. That's two pandemics both of which killed millions, and the exact process of each is in many ways mysterious (we know how it came back, but why did it come back, and why with such a big gap in time?). There's much about virus life cycles that's not understood (well, if you think viruses are "alive" enough to have a life cycle), if you Google "virus" and "upper atmosphere", you'll find lots of returns from 2018 of research describing how viruses travel around in the upper atmosphere (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41396-017-0042-4), maybe that's part of the answer and maybe it's nothing.

Yes, it being endemic now means it's unlikely to just disappear, but I'm not convinced anyone fully knows what's going on here beyond the broad brushstrokes (I'm old enough to recall when much more limited mitigation than happened in the end was supposed to limit UK deaths to 25k-50k). It likely is endemic basically everywhere, SA announced Omicron before it even sequenced the gnome fully. As soon as SA announced Belgium, Israel, Hong Kong announced they had cases within hours (so you either believe they could detect cases immediately within hours, or they already knew they had cases but there's so many variants they didn't care until someone else announced). Botswana has said the first Botswana Omicron cases in early November were from diplomats some of which were from Europe. This thing is way beyond mitigation and control now.

Once something is endemic public health measures will do little. As I've posted before, SA has endemic TB, every South African on here has had the BCG at birth immediately, some would've had the BCG again when they were teenagers, and some also again when they were conscripted into the military. The BCG is one of the most effective vaccines there is. SA's BCG vaccination is basically involuntary and has 100% coverage and has been that way for two generations, there's still endemic TB because the damp living conditions of many people have not been improved. Covid thrives indoors among groups of people (and seems to have a seasonal component), in other words the conditions for Covid are normal life. So you're not going to eliminate Covid through public health measures, and zero Covid doesn't look likely.

The Aussies are constructing rows of huts in remote locations where people must report to or face severe penalties. There are cases of this crippling people's lives (job losses etc). That has a strong whiff of concentration camp to me. Presumably every Aussie will have to do a stretch in one of these locations at some point in their lives, seeing as we're all getting Covid at some point, because it's endemic. But that's their look out, seems like madness to me.

[Uncle fester]

Would you fúck off with this agenda-driven shit?
For people working in sectors that are directly impacted by the hospital numbers, this has been the most fúcking awful years of our lives and we will be the ones who have to clean up the mess left by twats pushing their own twisted brand of "science".

[_Os_]

Would you fúck off with this agenda-driven shit?
For people working in sectors that are directly impacted by the hospital numbers, this has been the most fúcking awful years of our lives and we will be the ones who have to clean up the mess left by twats pushing their own twisted brand of "science".

I'm fully vaccinated (well unless boosters are the measure, which I don't qualify for anyway).

It's all an agenda, I remember when the agenda was get vaccinated then back to normal, and the agenda before that which was have a lockdown then back to normal.

What is your desired end point? How do you propose to live with endemic Covid?

This is what the MAC in SA says, the experts which advise the government. These are their answers. I'll go with their "twisted brand of science" until someone comes up with something better:
https://www.news24.com/news24/southafri ... e-20211219

If you have no answers for me, then good luck with unreasonable people.

[Biffer]

Would you fúck off with this agenda-driven shit?
For people working in sectors that are directly impacted by the hospital numbers, this has been the most fúcking awful years of our lives and we will be the ones who have to clean up the mess left by twats pushing their own twisted brand of "science".

I'm fully vaccinated (well unless boosters are the measure, which I don't qualify for anyway).

It's all an agenda, I remember when the agenda was get vaccinated then back to normal, and the agenda before that which was have a lockdown then back to normal.

What is your desired end point? How do you propose to live with endemic Covid?

This is what the MAC in SA says, the experts which advise the government. These are their answers. I'll go with their "twisted brand of science" until someone comes up with something better:
https://www.news24.com/news24/southafri ... e-20211219

If you have no answers for me, then good luck with unreasonable people.

What do you think endemic actually means?

[Uncle fester]

Would you fúck off with this agenda-driven shit?
For people working in sectors that are directly impacted by the hospital numbers, this has been the most fúcking awful years of our lives and we will be the ones who have to clean up the mess left by twats pushing their own twisted brand of "science".

I'm fully vaccinated (well unless boosters are the measure, which I don't qualify for anyway).

It's all an agenda, I remember when the agenda was get vaccinated then back to normal, and the agenda before that which was have a lockdown then back to normal.

What is your desired end point? How do you propose to live with endemic Covid?

This is what the MAC in SA says, the experts which advise the government. These are their answers. I'll go with their "twisted brand of science" until someone comes up with something better:
https://www.news24.com/news24/southafri ... e-20211219

If you have no answers for me, then good luck with unreasonable people.

"Whiff of concentration camps"
Yeah, you're a reasonable sort alright.

[salanya]

Would you fúck off with this agenda-driven shit?
For people working in sectors that are directly impacted by the hospital numbers, this has been the most fúcking awful years of our lives and we will be the ones who have to clean up the mess left by twats pushing their own twisted brand of "science".

Hear hear.

Let's hope Omicron is milder than the previous variants. But you still want to prevent spreading it in case you make others ill, and it can still make people poorly, whether just for a day or several weeks.
Meaning having to isolate and being off work.
Bit of a pain when you stack shelves or work in IT, but with serious consequences for oncologists, obstetricians but also firemen etc.
That's the concern for the wider society, and why measures need considering.

This pandemic is really showing people's true colours, and a general lack of empathy (anti-vaxxers, politicians and/or those with their own specific agenda without considering others).

[_Os_]

What do you think endemic actually means?

So now we're going to discuss the dictionary, when we can all Google the meaning of words. Endemic is something that's always there.

One of the dumbest things about all this, is you can read everything from actual scientists (journal articles and full press releases, not articles in the media filtered through journalists) and just repeat what they say. And it makes no difference, you will be told you're a moron. If you advocate for maximum mitigation, which has failed, no one questions that.

This from the first page first paragraph of the MAC's assessment sent to the minister of health:
"quarantine is only likely to be effective and/or practical in certain circumstances, and is an extreme, though sometimes necessary control measure for a disease outbreak. It is one potential control measure among many options, including isolation, and widespread testing campaigns. It does not generally have a role for endemic diseases, where control is not possible".
Just this block of text has three references from different US institutions/journal articles.

The whole of page two then goes on to describe that there should be no quarantine or isolation because it's now pointless (guess why dictionary dude), concluding with: "We propose that quarantining be discontinued with immediate effect" and "we further propose that contact tracing be stopped", and "this applies equally to vaccinated and non-vaccinated contacts". Page three continues explaining those recommendations. Page four the references.

So I read the top scientists advising my government, then I'm wrong and you want me to read the dictionary to you? I don't know where to go with that.

[Lemoentjie]

I do hope all the fatties who ask for lockdowns etc are equally as determined to lose their excess weight that puts them at risk not only for Covid, but many other problems that block up hospital beds.